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  1. #1
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    I wonder if Jock is referring to people using the term "traditional kilt" to refer to a particular kind of historical kilt, the kilt of the first quarter of the 19th century (if I understand them correctly).

    Many people use the terms "traditional" and "historical" interchangeably, but in music and other areas the words have nearly opposite meanings.

    Here's a crude but useful chart

    (unknown origin to...) > (dates of second iteration) > (dates of third iteration) > (dates of fourth iteration, which is its modern form.)

    A "traditional" thing is the whole shebang.

    A traditional thing is a modern thing. It's still in use. And it can trace its history through a number of evolutionary states in an unbroken chain back to an unknown origin.

    Now, let's look a couple ways that a thing can be not traditional.

    The thing can have ceased to be in use at some period in the past. Its chart looks like this:

    (unknown origin to...) > (dates of second iteration) > (dates of third iteration) > (went out of use by a particular date.)

    Another way is for a modern person to go back to one of the earlier (no longer current) stages in the evolution, pluck it out, and revive it.

    That's a "revival" thing, a "historical" thing, not a "traditional" thing.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 11th February 25 at 08:46 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    I wonder if Jock is referring to people using the term "traditional kilt" to refer to a particular kind of historical kilt, the kilt of the first quarter of the 19th century (if I understand them correctly).

    Many people use the terms "traditional" and "historical" interchangeably, but in music and other areas the words have nearly opposite meanings.

    Here's a crude but useful chart

    (unknown origin to...) > (dates of second iteration) > (dates of third iteration) > (dates of fourth iteration to its modern form.)

    A "traditional" thing is the whole shebang.

    A traditional thing is a modern thing. It's still in use. And it can trace its history through a number of evolutionary states in an unbroken chain back to an unknown origin.

    Now, let's look a couple ways that a thing can be not traditional.

    The thing can have ceased to be in use at some period in the past. Its chart looks like this:

    (unknown origin to...) > (dates of second iteration) > (dates of third iteration) > (went out of use by a particular date.)

    Another way is for a modern person to go back to one of the earlier (no longer current) stages in the evolution, pluck it out, and revive it.

    That's a "revival" thing, a "historical" thing, not a "traditional" thing.
    So where does that leave modern kilts stemming from 19th century highland revival and romanticism?
    Tha mi uabhasach sgith gach latha.
    “A man should look as if he has bought his clothes (kilt) with intelligence, put them (it) on with care, and then forgotten all about them (it).” Paraphrased from Hardy Amies
    Proud member of the Clans Urquhart and MacKenzie.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilted2000 View Post
    So where does that leave modern kilts stemming from 19th century highland revival and romanticism?
    From my point of view THIS is where the traditional kilt starts from. The 19th Century.

    We can split hairs all day long with this date or that date and never agree.

    We can also split hairs of this historic style or that historic style to eternity and get absolutely nowhere in this discussion. So endless discussion on minute historic detail , though important to some, is heading us straight into the mire.

    Come on chaps, we all know what a traditional kilt is without delving into historical attire minutiae . Don’t we?

    Well, my plan failed! Its my fault, I should have made myself more clear. Sorry. I am talking more about the end of the 19th century onwards and particularly, the last 75 years
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 10th February 25 at 04:41 AM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

  4. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to Jock Scot For This Useful Post:


  5. #4
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    Just for the sake of encouraging the subject, it has been discussed in this forum before, for example:
    https://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/...torical-80072/
    waulk softly and carry a big schtick

  6. The Following User Says 'Aye' to jhockin For This Useful Post:


  7. #5
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    Well alright the conversation has not gone at all the way I had hoped. I was attempting not to steer the conversation and had hoped that kilt construction, materials and so on would be a large part of the subject. Particularly as modern materials, pockets and so on seem to be popular subjects and far from traditional. However it hasn't. No worries, it was entirely predictable, although disappointing.

    It is very interesting that the two British contributors understood what I was asking, the rest went off at many and different courses!

    Mods, perhaps the thread could be closed, please.
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 11th February 25 at 01:21 AM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    It is very interesting that the two British contributors understood what I was asking, the rest went off at many and different courses!

    Mods, perhaps the thread could be closed, please.
    I understood what you were asking. For those who don't know, I'm an America living in the UK. I didn't contribute, though, as I thought my views on what is traditional might be influenced by my standards/techniques as a kiltmaker.

  9. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Arnot For This Useful Post:


  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnot View Post
    I understood what you were asking. For those who don't know, I'm an America living in the UK. I didn't contribute, though, as I thought my views on what is traditional might be influenced by my standards/techniques as a kiltmaker.
    Troy.
    Your views are welcome on any post that I make and at any time.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

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