Correct shirt for semi-formal (aka, back tie)?

[TheVintageLibertine]

I recently got a great price on a vintage(ish) Agyle jacket in black barathea, which I plan to use as the equivalent of a dinner jacket for events where a Prince Charlie and waistcoat are a bit too much.

What is considered the proper evening shirt for that mode of highland formalwear?

When dressing down my tuxedo by wearing a cummerbund in lieu of a waistcoat or wearing a dinner jacket, I usually wear a pleat-front evening shirt with a fall collar, because that is, more-or-less, the etiquette/custom/convention with Saxon formalwear.

Does that etiquette/custom/convention hold true for highland formalwear?

[kilted2000]

I like what is called a marcella front shirt like this https://www.charlestyrwhitt.com/us/m...OL0154WHT.html

Personally I'm not a fan of wing collar or pleated shirts but that's just me. Really any white French cuff shirt without a button down collar will work.

Do yourself a favor and wear a black bowtie you tie yourself. It's easy and looks much better.

[figheadair]

I recently got a great price on a vintage(ish) Agyle jacket in black barathea, which I plan to use as the equivalent of a dinner jacket for events where a Prince Charlie and waistcoat are a bit too much.

What is considered the proper evening shirt for that mode of highland formalwear?

When dressing down my tuxedo by wearing a cummerbund in lieu of a waistcoat or wearing a dinner jacket, I usually wear a pleat-front evening shirt with a fall collar, because that is, more-or-less, the etiquette/custom/convention with Saxon formalwear.

Does that etiquette/custom/convention hold true for highland formalwear?

An Argyle jacket is a relatively modern concept that people seem to wear on a range of occasions. People new to Highland wear often tend to overdress. The key here is the type of event you are attending. If it's formal then I would have thought you PC would be fine. If you choose the Argyle in place of a PC then the equivalent shirt and tie would be appropriate. I prefer a Marcella shirt with turn-down collar and self-tie black bow tie (a wing collar is reserved for White Tie in my book). But, if you are wearing it for an evening event such as a reception, drinks etc., then a business type shirt, plain or lightly patterned, and a standard tie is appropriate.

[Jock Scot]

Is there a definition of what "semi formal" attire is? To this admiitedly rather old fashioned chap, this idea of "semi formal" is a complete mystery to me. To my mind we have "smart" which requires at least a tweed jacket, smart trousers(not jeans!) and drop down tie, or, a suit and drop down tie, or, in kilt terms, a tweed jacket and a drop down tie. Or, we have formal, which requires, in kilt terms, a black bow tie(yes other colours can, unfortunately, be worn) and assorted formal jackets .

This idea of "semi formal" and its requirements is, apparently, a real mystery for so many others too.

[figheadair]

This idea of "semi formal" and its requirements is, apparently, a real mystery for so many others too.

Agreed. I think that this is/was originally an Americanism. Similarly, I don't recall attending anything in the UK where the dress code was Formal. Like you, I have a military background and am comfortable with:

Casual
Smart Casual
Cocktail
Black Tie (with or without decorations)
White Tie

[TheVintageLibertine]

Thanks for the suggestions, all!

For clarification, in the UK (or, more specifically, England) “formal” historically referred to what we Americans call “white-tie” and includes tails for the evening or morning dress for daytime. “Semi-formal” which Americans call “black-tie” refers to tuxedos for evening or the old-timely daywear London bankers/businessmen wear in Monty Python skits.

Within, semi-formal there are a lot of unwritten rules for formality, which the Georgians invented to prevent us hoi polloi from fitting in … (joking).

Basically, I live in Southern California, so waistcoats are often overkill due to the mild climate and general casualness.

As an example of events where a PC might be too much, at bougie holiday or new year parties here where the dress code is black tie, men often wear festive dinner jackets in bright colors or tartan. I bought a black Argyle for such occasions because it provides a more contemporary version of formalwear than a PC with waistcoat which looks straight out of the 1920s.

[OC Richard]

Highland Dress was fairly sorted between Day and Evening by Edwardian times, c.f. Loudon MacQueen Douglas' guide to Highland Dress published in 1914 giving the clear demarcation between the two categories which persists to this day.

I've seen plenty of photos of events where the "Saxon" men are wearing white ties and the gents in Highland Evening Dress are wearing black ties, which suggests that Highland Evening Dress doesn't have one-to-one correspondences to "Saxon" categories.

Then there's the matter of the lace Jabot often worn with Highland Evening Dress, obviously having no "Saxon" counterpart.

My impression is that the whole "semi-dress" thing was a creature of Kilt Hire, due to Highland Evening Dress requiring tartan/diced full hose, buckled brogues, and seal Evening sporran, all these things being seen as too expensive. So a new sort of Highland outfit was cooked up, with an Evening jacket (generally black Coatee or Argyll), nasty cheap white hose, Ghillie brogues, and a new "semi-dress" category of sporran specifically invented for this Hire outfit.

I have some catalogues from 1983 which form a snapshot of this then-nascent form of dress. An Edinburgh firm offers a dozen or so traditional Evening sporrans, a dozen or so traditional Day sporrans, and a few they call "Day-Evening" sporrans.

In any case I and many others view this as being Hire stuff and not impacting the traditional Day and Evening categories.

There is this interesting mini-article in the 1936 Andersons catalogue, which speaks of wearing "a jacket of the ordinary Day shape" (Argyll) in dark grey or black when "Saxon" men are in Lounge Suits:

[OC Richard]

While the sort of black Argyll typically seen today, with matching Barathea lapels, seems a step down in formality it wasn't so in the old days, when black Argylls were made with satin lapels and were simply another cut of Evening jacket:



This was when long white goathair sporrans were standard for Evening Dress.

[TheVintageLibertine]

This period source attempts to map highland formalwear to equivalent modes of “Saxon” formalwear. From the terminology and referenced plate, it indicates a doublet with lace jabot is equivalent to white tie with tails *and* morning dress for both daytime and evening.

The Argyle-like jackets with satan lapels in your next post are interesting. I’ve never seen (or, at least haven’t noticed) that detail before. Any idea when these images were taken?

The decade from 1919 to 1929 was a time of flux for “Saxon” formalwear due to changes, including the invention/adoption of the tuxedo as we know it, civilian mess jackets, colored dinner jackets, etc. (I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Prince Charlie as we know it was also introduced in the 1920s.) I’m wondering if those satan lapel Argyle-like jackets are from the same period?

[Jock Scot]

This period source attempts to map highland formalwear to equivalent modes of “Saxon” formalwear. From the terminology and referenced plate, it indicates a doublet with lace jabot is equivalent to white tie with tails *and* morning dress for both daytime and evening.

The Argyle-like jackets with satan lapels in your next post are interesting. I’ve never seen (or, at least haven’t noticed) that detail before. Any idea when these images were taken?

The decade from 1919 to 1929 was a time of flux for “Saxon” formalwear due to changes, including the invention/adoption of the tuxedo as we know it, civilian mess jackets, colored dinner jackets, etc. (I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Prince Charlie as we know it was also introduced in the 1920s.) I’m wondering if those satan lapel Argyle-like jackets are from the same period?

This post above from TheVintageLibertine and others like OCR confirms what I have been thinking for quite some time now, the examples that are shown in his post and elsewhere are very nearly 100 years old now and some examples are even older. Surely it's not beyond the wit of today's kilt attire wearers to "adjust" their attire to fit today's attire requirements? To my eye this rather theatrical overdressing for modern viewing that is rather slavishly followed by some is not, in my view, relevant to today's needs.

The kilt attire hire companies are and have in fact been doing so for quite some time with their use of those awful ghillie brogues, meagre fly plaid and dreadful white hose "look", but somehow, in my eyes , they have failed to do so sympathetically. We can do better than that!

Jock now dives for cover!!!!