Correct shirt for semi-formal (aka, back tie)?

[Father Bill]

The top picture was a Burns Supper hosted by the San Francisco Scottish Rite. Since the dress code was black tie, I opted for buckle brogues and a white sporran. The next time I’m in the UK I really want to get a seal skin sporran.

Good luck bringing it home past Customs.

[kilted redleg]

Once again Father Bill has struck the nail squarely on the head. I do not expect Customs will let that go through. If I may let me make a suggestion, look into Highland Leatherworks. I was invited and attended a black-tie dinner in Edinburgh Scotland last year. I purchased from HLW a wolverine sporran at a very reasonable price. Needless to say, my sporran was the hit of the dinner it seemed like everyone wanted to know what that was around my waist. That was Saturday evening, and I was back in my room by 11 PM and of course let everything "gas out" and put my sporran [which I nicknamed Walter] on a shelf top. Next day Sunday it was off to Church and then back to my hotel for breakfast, then a brief stroll up the royal mile came back at 1 PM. To my dismay my room was untouched, so I went down to the desk and spoke to the young lady there who told me Sunday was a busy day as people are leaving to catch flights back home. I told her I understand, it just seemed like my room was always attended to by 1PM. She assured me someone would be there to clean my room.
At about 3PM a gentleman comes to clean my room we are conversing while he's cleaning. He tells me he's going to wipe down the lights then be done, I'm sitting at a table in the corner of the room writing in my journal about the events taking place during my trip. Suddenly I hear "Yeow what the" I look up in time to see this guy back jumped off the shelf landing on the middle of my bed some 15 feet away and pointing to the shelf at Walter. That's my sporran, Walter, it's a wolverine I said. In retrospect I think the girls came into clean saw Walter and said no way and left.
So, forget the sealskin which could be a hassle and a seizure at customs go to Highland Leatherworks pursue the work he does, if you purchase a sporran from him, you will not be disappointed. Merry Christmas All.

[Jock Scot]

Out of genuine interest which lot of Customs Officers are we talking about here? Ours? Or Yours? Or, both?

[kilted redleg]

Can't speak for your side of the yard Jock but, US Customs is known to seize whatever they can. A few years back when citie rules on ivory were in effect; unless a piper had paperwork to show their pipes were made prior to date specified in the law ivory mounted pipes were being seized at a regular rate. There was a story carried in the local news media about a young piper who had his great great grandfather's [who came to the US in 1800's] ivory pipes seized at customs for lack of paperwork. Happily after a call from their US senator who knew the family the pipes were returned.

[Jock Scot]

Can't speak for your side of the yard Jock but, US Customs is known to seize whatever they can. A few years back when citie rules on ivory were in effect; unless a piper had paperwork to show their pipes were made prior to date specified in the law ivory mounted pipes were being seized at a regular rate. There was a story carried in the local news media about a young piper who had his great great grandfather's [who came to the US in 1800's] ivory pipes seized at customs for lack of paperwork. Happily after a call from their US senator who knew the family the pipes were returned.

Thank you.I have no idea how our UK Customs deal with this sort of situation, but I can imagine that problems might arise both with importing and exporting such goods.

[OC Richard]

The 1990 international ban on international trade or transportation of ivory (only affecting CITES member nations) is still in effect but has been watered-down a bit with some ivory trade being allowed.

A big change was a musical instrument exemption, so you should no longer have things like the string orchestra who got a lot of their instruments seized (many violins etc and/or their bows have tiny amounts of ivory).

Then there are the internal US things like the ban on sealskin (the Marine Mammal Protection Act) and President Obama's Executive Order banning the buying, selling, or possession of any ivory "worked or unworked" within the US, which as far as I know is still in effect. (This is not connected to the international CITES law.)

The level of proof the US requires is too high for most bagpipes to meet, for example I had a set of Glasgow-made pipes c1905 with ivory but I had no documentation as to when the pipes entered the US. In fact there's no way to prove that ivory mounts are original to a set of pipes unless you have the original bill of sale, which the vast majority of pipes made in the late 19th and early 20th century lack.

There's an internal UK ban on ivory but I don't know if it's in effect.

About the evolution of Evening Dress in Scotland, here's a group of Scots, all of them having worn kilts since they were lads, some of them having worn kilts during military service, at an Evening do several years ago.

Only half are wearing the traditionally required patterned hose, and only one is wearing the traditionally required shoe buckles. However all are wearing traditional Evening sporrans- happily no "semi dress" sporrans are seen.



Almost exactly a century earlier we have the gents below. Three men are wearing doublets as opposed to only one man in the photo above. None of the gents below are wearing Prince Charlie coatees. None of the gents above are wearing plaids or dirks.

We see Ghillies in both photos, but a century ago all appear to be fitted with buckles, however small.

[Jock Scot]

[QUOTE=OC Richard;1413361]



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Please correct me if I'm am wrong, but the gentlemen in the picture are/were accomplished pipers and as such they are entertainers dressed up to the nines to entertain an audience. Yet again you fail to understand that bands and their attire and the musicians are entertainers so their dress requirements are rather more showy than an audience may require.

This is my point! The unhelpful picture demonstrates that guests------for MOST occasions------ going to a formal event and much less so for whatever a semi-formal(a decidedly unhelpful term) is a tad more than the event requires. They don't need to follow what the entertainers are wearing. In consequence, the starry-eyed newcomer to kilt attire should not be led astray with their attire requirements and with the ensuing unnecessary expense, by thinking they need all the bells and whistles that entertainers need. They don't!

[Jock Scot]

Post deleted, dual post. Sorry.

[OC Richard]

[QUOTE=Jock Scot;1413377]

Please correct me if I'm am wrong, but the gentlemen in the picture are/were accomplished pipers and as such they are entertainers dressed up to the nines to entertain an audience. Yet again you fail to understand that bands and their attire and the musicians are entertainers so their dress requirements are rather more showy than an audience require.

Yes they are people who play the pipes, but they are also people. None of these men are dressed in Pipe Band attire. No Pipe Band dresses like that.

Nor are they dressed as entertainers- they're simply attending a do.

Not that the people who have dedicated their lives to Piobaireachd- which is art music- are entertainers, nor are solo Piobaireachd competitions "entertainment". Indeed the vast majority of the audience for such piping is other pipers. The General Public considers Piobaireachd dull and incomprehensible.

The one exception there is Gordon Walker who, with several drinks in him at a party, clearly enjoys entertaining. But when playing Piobaireachd he's serious and respects the music.

In another thread a while back I traced the dress of the top pipers competing at Oban over the years and very few are dressed in Pipe Band attire. Upper-level pipers competing in solos generally avoid dressing in Pipe Band attire and simply wear traditional Highland Dress. They are Scots and life-long kilt-wearers, after all.

[Jock Scot]

[QUOTE=OC Richard;1413379]

Yes they are people who play the pipes, but they are also people. None of these men are dressed in Pipe Band attire. No Pipe Band dresses like that.

Nor are they dressed as entertainers- they're simply attending a do.

Not that the people who have dedicated their lives to Piobaireachd- which is art music- are entertainers, nor are solo Piobaireachd competitions "entertainment". Indeed the vast majority of the audience for such piping is other pipers. The General Public considers Piobaireachd dull and incomprehensible.

The one exception there is Gordon Walker who, with several drinks in him at a party, clearly enjoys entertaining. But when playing Piobaireachd he's serious and respects the music.

In another thread a while back I traced the dress of the top pipers competing at Oban over the years and very few are dressed in Pipe Band attire. Upper-level pipers competing in solos generally avoid dressing in Pipe Band attire and simply wear traditional Highland Dress. They are Scots and life-long kilt-wearers, after all.

They may be" lifelong kilt-wearers" but they are/were showmen as well!