Women in Kilts?

[KiltedKnight]

I think a part of it, for her anyways, is the heritage. We (as in members of Xmarks) know that you don't have to be scottish to wear a kilt, and you don't have to wear a kilt to be scottish. But I think in her mind theres really not much a woman can do to proudly display her scottish heritage.

"Heritage" is an excuse that cannot possibly work. For a woman to claim that she wants to wear a man's kilt for the sake of her heritage flies right in the face of the very defintion of the word. I won't go into writing the entire definition because I'm sure we all have a dictionary but it deals with the way things are and should be, not how someone wants them to be. A woman's Scottish heritage would have to do with what feminine articles women wore, not wanting to wear a man's kilt, so the entire discussion makes no sense.

What exactly is wrong about a kilted skirt the same cut the same length as a man's kilt would be and with the opening to the left? My own wife has never given a thought to wearing a man's kilt but loves her kilted skirts which are very elegant when worn with a feminine blouse and a sash. Even she can't understand why a woman would want to wear a man's kilt.

Just another two cents from me that I found while walking down the street trying to figure this out.

Chris.

[ccga3359]

What exactly is wrong about a kilted skirt the same cut the same length as a man's kilt would be and with the opening to the left? My own wife has never given a thought to wearing a man's kilt but loves her kilted skirts which are very elegant when worn with a feminine blouse and a sash. Even she can't understand why a woman would want to wear a man's kilt.

Has it not been shown in this thread that a kilted skirt can have right hip buckling and still be a kilted skirt? Now you say "the same cut" & "the same length" add the buckles on the right it is still a "kilted skirt" is it not? Then could not a woman wearing a kilt actually be wearing a kilted skirt by virtue of being a women alone?

[KiltedKnight]

Has it not been shown in this thread that a kilted skirt can have right hip buckling and still be a kilted skirt? Now you say "the same cut" & "the same length" add the buckles on the right it is still a "kilted skirt" is it not? Then could not a woman wearing a kilt actually be wearing a kilted skirt by virtue of being a women alone?

Perhaps you haven't noticed that men's clothing and women's clothing are made differently and have been for a couple hundred years.

A woman's blouse opens from the left and a man's shirt opens from the left. A kilted skirt opens from the left and a man's kilt opens from the right. That cannot be that difficult to understand and no matter how much anyone relies on someone else's misguided opinion about where the buckles belong, a woman's skirt, kilted or no, still opens from the left.

Chris.

[Panache]

I was given a very nice white men's dress shirt with french cuffs. Sadly it proved to be a size too small. I gave this shirt to my lovely wife, the F-H.C.A.G. She wears it and it looks smashing on her. She has recieved nothing but compliments. On her it becomes feminine. I wear a thin black women's belt as a sporran strap. It works very well. On me it is masculine. Ditto with the brass snake pin that my wife gave me that I wear as a kilt pin. As a lapel pin it would be feminine, as a kilt pin it becomes masculine.

I believe Eric Clapton said "It's just the way that you use it"

Cheers

[staticsan]

A woman's blouse opens from the left and a man's shirt opens from the left. A kilted skirt opens from the left and a man's kilt opens from the right. That cannot be that difficult to understand and no matter how much anyone relies on someone else's misguided opinion about where the buckles belong, a woman's skirt, kilted or no, still opens from the left.

It is somewhat ironic that the reasons for this are little more than historical inertia. Although a quick Google search fails to find me anything definitive, it does have something to do with how people were dressed when button-down shirts (for example) became widespread. Whilst shirts for men open almost exclusively to the right, shirts for women open both ways, thus showing that practicality eventually wins.

This all sounds very familiar! Since the whole purpose of men wearning kilts outside of Scottish Historical Events is to put aside a lot of such historical baggage, which way the apron of a women's kilt folds ought to be largely up to the owner of the garment.

Ya know, I wouldn't be hugely surprised if left-handed males decided they liked the apron to fold to the left...

Wade.

[Nanook]

Perhaps you haven't noticed that men's clothing and women's clothing are made differently and have been for a couple hundred years.

I need to strongly disagree and refer you to read my earlier message in this thread.

A woman's blouse opens from the left and a man's shirt opens from the left.

Many women's "blouses" (a name not exclusive to women's garb) have their buttons to the right and others to the left. Are the ones with buttons on the right really effeminate men's shirts?

A kilted skirt opens from the left and a man's kilt opens from the right.

Many women's kilted skirts close to the right . All wrap around skirts from (royal-warrant holder) Kinloch Anderson close to the right . Their box pleated skirt is not wrap around. It has a zipper to the left .

I do know of many designers that place their skirt closures to the front, left, right, rear and various offset positions. Among the skirts with fly front (zipper and button and/or press-stub) many (but not all) even close right (like a pair of Levi's 501 jeans).

I have seen vintage (pre-war) men's kilts that closed to the left.

The fact of the matter is: nearly all contemporary women's skirts are derived from male garments. They literally cast their shrouds aside to wear male symbols. The "short skirt" that many here fear their kilts are being mistaken for is indeed a garment with a male heritage (much directly from Highland kilts and Greek Foustanela) . While I know of many historical short skirts (knee of shorter) worn by men I know of none that were worn by women (save in fiction). Its relatively modern that men have taken to the pursuit of uniformity (not to stand out) rather than (as in nature) ostentatious display ("peacock"). Many of the "founding fathers" of the United States ran about in
lace, silk-velvets with frills, pumps, wigs and make-up. Today at the Central Criminal Court ("Old Bailey") one finds judges in formal robes with wigs on their heads and "pumps" (court shoes) on their feet.

"So after 1635, the correctly-dressed judge would have worn a black robe faced with miniver (a light-coloured fur) in winter, and violet or scarlet robes, faced with shot-pink taffeta, in summer. A black girdle, or cincture, was worn with all robes." [ from: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/about_ju...tory/index.htm ]

That cannot be that difficult to understand and no matter how much anyone relies on someone else's misguided opinion about where the buckles belong, a woman's skirt, kilted or no, still opens from the left.

Nanook "misguided" of the North :-)

[Dreadbelly]

Tartan pantyhose are not outdated, just expensive

[SnakeEyes]

"Heritage" is an excuse that cannot possibly work.

I wasn't trying to make excuses, I was trying to make sense of it for myself. Maybe it's because she's my friend, but I'm also trying to play the Devil's advocate. Instead of just saying she shouldn't because it's a man's garment or saying she should because it's a free world, I'm trying to reason. Because to tell the truth, she really hasn't given me a real reason why.

[Barry]

Instead of just saying she shouldn't because it's a man's garment or saying she should because it's a free world, I'm trying to reason. Because to tell the truth, she really hasn't given me a real reason why.

Women don't need to give a reason.

This thread has been quite enlightening; logic, opinion, "facts". fors and againsts. But no-one seems to have mentioned the real arbiter here: Society's current view of male/female clothing. IMHO the situation in the West is that women can and do wear any garment, wether intended for them or no. Men, on the other hand are expected to wear, and generally do, clothes of a fairly narrow range which other men are also wearing i.e blokes stuff. Whereas the females are applauded or ignored when they wear man's clothes, any man daring to wear anything remotly "feminine" is immediately branded as gay or a cross dresser or a pervert.
Now I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong. The British Prime Minister is on record as saying that no-one should tell another how to dress. I'm just trying to explain what I see as the status quo.

So, our good lady that started this little ball rolling may, can, and will wear a man's kilt and we chaps will still face unenlightened comment from "real men" when we are in our kilts and cilts. A "free world"? Not is this England it isn't.

I think this thread has run it course and should now be put to bed. It really has been great to read all the input and with such gentlemanly retraint present.

Lang may yer lum reek!

[McClef]

I just got the DVD of Yentl, in my view Streisand's best film.

At the end when she reveals her true gender she gets the "not wearing that which appertaineth to a man" bit. This quote has been bandied around in many contexts (and usually without reference to the original one) and still exists in the unconcious mind of some.

It's even been used against men in kilts!

There is also a lot of snobbery about what is "correct" and about "entitlements" which members of this forum do their best to dispel. This discussion shows that there are variances in views which have been given with restraint and respect.

Fashions and ideas of dress evolve all the time, I don't think we can claim an exemption from that for the kilt. If it evolves into a "unisex" garment then sobeit if it increases its popularity, toleration and use. That doesn't mean that all the accessories would automatically be unisex although I did see a lesbian at a ceilidh in full Highland fig and she looked better than some of the men did!