Kilted Etymologies

[TheKiltedWonder]

I love it! Thanks. And not wishing to start a debate, BUT "rags", as used here, may simply refer to clothes in the general sense. Rather like persons engaged in the fashon industry refer to it as "the rag trade". May have to rush to my OED and look up rags....

That's a very good point. I just assumed it was a jab at Irish clothing. It could well have been meant in the general sense. And what's wrong with friendly debate? I have plenty more to learn!

That explains why I use hosen as the plural of hose. My father's mother spole a rather archaic English having been brought up in the wilds of Derbyshire and never went to school. We lived with my fathers parents from my being two years old until I was seven.

Isn't brogue also used for an accent?

Yep it is. It can refer to a strongly marked accent, particularly that of Irish English. The OED (The Oxford English Dictionary, for those of you rushing to your own dictionaries in order to figure this out) mentions that some assume a connection between the shoes usage and the accent usage "as if ‘the speech of those who wear brogues’, or ‘who call their shoes brogues’;" However the OED notes "but of this there is no evidence."

P.S. I have total dialect jealousy now. That's a really old plural form (the -en) ending but it's so rare (used with "oxen" and um..."oxen")

[Ruanaidh]

P.S. I have total dialect jealousy now. That's a really old plural form (the -en) ending but it's so rare (used with "oxen" and um..."oxen")

And "children".

[TheKiltedWonder]

And "children".

but of course. I knew there was a common one I was forgetting. I was just hoping that it was something that wasn't tooooo painfully obvious. Good catch though. Thanks!

[Clockwork John]

[QUOTE=TheKiltedWonder;473945]
Yep it is. It can refer to a strongly marked accent, particularly that of Irish English. The OED (The Oxford English Dictionary, for those of you rushing to your own dictionaries in order to figure this out) mentions that some assume a connection between the shoes usage and the accent usage "as if ‘the speech of those who wear brogues’, or ‘who call their shoes brogues’;" However the OED notes "but of this there is no evidence."
QUOTE]

One possible origin I've heard for "brogue" as an accent, is something to the effect of "his accent was so heavy it sounded like he had a brogue in his mouth."

I couldn't tell you where I read that, so don't quote me on it.

[Galician]

One possible origin I've heard for "brogue" as an accent, is something to the effect of "his accent was so heavy it sounded like he had a brogue in his mouth." I couldn't tell you where I read that, so don't quote me on it.

As a student, I heard that explanation from older Irish-Americans, along with VERY clear advice that using the term was offensive to them.

if I remember correctly, Old English had a dual verb form used for two people in addition to the plural form, so it would make sense that they might have a seperate dual form for the nouns.

Is it related in any way to the dual voice in ancient Greek?

"the Quelt..a small Part of the Plaid is set in Folds and girt round the Waste to make of it a Petticoat..."

For those of us old enough to remember petticoats as a standard woman's garment, this is quite an image!!

[TheKiltedWonder]

Is it related in any way to the dual voice in ancient Greek?

I would bet that it does. I don't think dual lasted very long in English, as we got rid of a lot of a lot of morphology inherited from Proto-Germanic and ultimately from Proto-Indo-European (PIE). Since Greek is a PIE language (yummm!), I wouldn't be surprised if PIE had a dual form that some of its daughter languages inherited.

Of course, as a linguist I try to never give a straight answer, so it could be that these two uses of a dual form arose independently in both languages.

[Woodsman]

This verb is classified as "apparently of Scandanavian origin" on account of Danish kilte meaning "to tuck up", ON kilting "skirt".

Being part Swedish I was always interested in the Scandanavian origins for kilt. But I suspect it was more rooted in a woman's skirt than in a gentleman's kilt. A blue and yellow Swedish tartan would be nice.

[TheKiltedWonder]

Being part Swedish I was always interested in the Scandanavian origins for kilt. But I suspect it was more rooted in a woman's skirt than in a gentleman's kilt. A blue and yellow Swedish tartan would be nice.

Well, judging from the OED's entries the noun seems to have come from the verb mentioned in the original post. I suspect that "kilt" the noun always referrred to a male, Scottish garment in English since the earliest written attestation refers to a male garment. The verb its derived from could be used with male clothing, as seen in the quotation, but I suspect it could also be used to describe female clothing as well.

As for a Swedish tartan, I believe there is one. I thought about getting it myself.

[offtopic]
Did you all know that skirt and shirt come from the same root? Skirt was inherited from Old English. Shirt comes from Old Norse and as I said, was from the same root as "skirt". However in Swedish even today "ski" will make a "shi" sound, so in Old Norse "skirt" became pronounced "shirt" and the English borrowed a word into the language which it already had and they gave it a slightly different meaning.

[JakobT]

Being part Swedish I was always interested in the Scandanavian origins for kilt. But I suspect it was more rooted in a woman's skirt than in a gentleman's kilt. A blue and yellow Swedish tartan would be nice.

There is a Gothenburg tartan which contains yellow and blue, and there are at least three or four other Swedish tartans as well.

[Woodsman]

Thanks. I'll do more searching and I'll be sure to look up the Göteborg.