Are You A Clansman?

[macwilkin]

That's pretty funny....but not exactly true.

The Irish do have clans, some which have gone back as long as the Scots clans in history (at least). Here's the ones I know of:

Clan Cian
http://www.clancian-carroll.com/

Clan Egan USA
http://home.sprynet.com/~mttaylor/clanegan.htm

Clan Kelly
http://www.clankelly.org/

Clan McAteer Ireland
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cd200/

Clan McLaughlin of Donegal
http://members.aol.com/lochlan/clanmac.htm

Clan Muir Society
http://www.theclanmuir.org/index.html

Clann Mac Aodhagáin
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/5500/

Doyle Clan
http://www.doyle.com.au/index.htm

Dysert Ó Dea Clan Association
http://www.odeaclan.org/

O'Dochartaigh Doherty Clann
http://www.odochartaigh.org/

Cassidy Clan
http://www.cassidyclan.org/

Clan MacMahon Association
http://www.orgsites.com/ca/clanmacmahon/

Curtin Clan Association
http://www.curtin.org/

Hickey Clan
http://www.hickeyclan.com/

MacDermot Clan
http://www.macdermot.com/

Maguire Clan
http://www.csn.ul.ie/~ger/maguire/

McManus Clan Association
http://members.aol.com/manus/mcmanus.html

O Mahony Society
http://cat.spindata.com/mahony/welcome.html

O'Brien Clan
http://www.obrienclan.com/

O'Gara Clan Association
http://www.ogara.org/

O'Malley Clan Association
http://www.omalley-clan.org/

O'More (O'Mórda) Clan Society
http://www.clanomore.com/

Ryan Clan Association U. S. Sept
http://www.ryans.org/

Sweeney Clan
http://www.sweeneyclan.com/

Waldron Clan Association
http://www.mayo-ireland.ie/Geneal/Fa...ns/Waldron.htm

The Ulster Clans
http://www.ulsterclans.org/index.html

See my post above for Sean Murphy's series of articles on the issue of "Irish clans".

T.

[BoldHighlander]

See my post above for Sean Murphy's series of articles on the issue of "Irish clans".

T.

I am well aware of Mr. Murphy's articles, have even corresponded in the past with him.

However, while the Irish clan system might have differed from the Scottish one, they did have a clans of their own at one time. That & the fact that Irish clan socities exist today was the only point I was trying to make.

Thanks for pointing that out just the same.

[beloitpiper]

I am well aware of Mr. Murphy's articles, have even corresponded in the past with him.

However, while the Irish clan system might have differed from the Scottish one, they did have a clans of their own at one time. That & the fact that Irish clan socities exist today was the only point I was trying to make.

Thanks for pointing that out just the same.

The Irish certainly had a different system, but I certainly would not call them "clans". The Irish system did not have primogeniture like the Scottish or Anglo-Norman system did. Primogeniture is the passing of land and title from father to son. This did not exist in Ireland. Instead, nobles in the kingdom would elect their next king, which meant that while families stayed in power, the power could transfer from uncle to nephew or cousin to cousin.

[Begin Irish archaeology reference]
This is why the Irish built wooden defenses. When the Normans (and later the Anglo-Normans) invaded, they built large stone castles while the Irish built wooden structures and crannogs. They knew there was no guarantee that the large, expensive stone castles would be passed to their son like the Normans did. Instead, they spent their money on poets, lawyers, historians, and armies.
[End Irish archaeology reference]

Oh, and cajunscot, I think we're in agreement. The system is not longer there, but the clans are.

[BoldHighlander]

The Irish certainly had a different system, but I certainly would not call them "clans". The Irish system did not have primogeniture like the Scottish or Anglo-Norman system did. Primogeniture is the passing of land and title from father to son. This did not exist in Ireland. Instead, nobles in the kingdom would elect their next king, which meant that while families stayed in power, the power could transfer from uncle to nephew or cousin to cousin.

You are correct in that point. The Irish had the system known as Tánaiste (or Tanistry). So I guess if we were to appease those who don't like the use of Irish & clans together we should really be referring to the Irish 'Clans' as 'Septs' or 'Families', eh?
Might get a wee bit confusing to those who think of Sept in the Scottish terms

One interesting point, in reference to Primogeniture. It seems that the Scottish clans have, over time, adopted a form of Tanistry in that time & time again, when a Chief dies without issue of his own, (& know immediate kin are found), then the Chieftainship has gone to other related (& sometimes distant) lines.

[Begin Irish archaeology reference]
This is why the Irish built wooden defenses. When the Normans (and later the Anglo-Normans) invaded, they built large stone castles while the Irish built wooden structures and crannogs. They knew there was no guarantee that the large, expensive stone castles would be passed to their son like the Normans did. Instead, they spent their money on poets, lawyers, historians, and armies.
[End Irish archaeology reference]

hmm.... I do know of at least two pre-Norman stone structures /castles that exist: Collooney Castle (listed as a 12th century pre-Norman Irish castle) , & the O'More's own Rock of Dunamase - the ruins of which can be seen at: http://www.clanomore.com/Photos.htm
which go back to the times of the kings (or chiefs) of Laois (Leix) / Dunamase, until 1325, when 'Laoiseach O’More, seized the castle of Dunamase and recovered for his family all the lands held by his ancestors, viz., all that extent of country lying between the Barrow and the Nore, and extending westwards towards the Slieve Bloom mountains, and portions of the present Counties of Kildare and Kilkenny.'

[BoldHighlander]

(& know immediate kin are found)

OOPS! Mistype!
My computer is having fits, won't let me edit my original message.
Yes, I meant "NO" not "KNOW"

Sorry about that...

[beloitpiper]

hmm.... I do know of at least two pre-Norman stone structures /castles that exist: Collooney Castle (listed as a 12th century pre-Norman Irish castle) , & the O'More's own Rock of Dunamase - the ruins of which can be seen at: http://www.clanomore.com/Photos.htm
which go back to the times of the kings (or chiefs) of Laois (Leix) / Dunamase, until 1325, when 'Laoiseach O’More, seized the castle of Dunamase and recovered for his family all the lands held by his ancestors, viz., all that extent of country lying between the Barrow and the Nore, and extending westwards towards the Slieve Bloom mountains, and portions of the present Counties of Kildare and Kilkenny.'

Collooney was a wooden motte castle, as I described, and Dunamase was first fortified in the "stone castle" form by Strongbow (Richard de Clare) who was, in fact, a Norman Baron. He actually led the Norman invasion, and fortified the site in 1168. Prior to that it was a cashel, which in fairness is made of stone, but is not a castle. Cashels are simple stone rings with walls several meters thick. More like forts than castles.

[BoldHighlander]

Collooney was a wooden motte castle, as I described, and Dunamase was first fortified in the "stone castle" form by Strongbow (Richard de Clare) who was, in fact, a Norman Baron. He actually led the Norman invasion, and fortified the site in 1168. Prior to that it was a cashel, which in fairness is made of stone, but is not a castle. Cashels are simple stone rings with walls several meters thick. More like forts than castles.

Interesting.... then the Irish need to be corrected on their history, as it is they who I got the information from

e.g. "In 1152, we learn that Diarmuid Mac Morrough, Diarmuid na Ngall, brought Devorgille, wife of O’Rourke of Breifne, to his castle of Dunamase. (This information is still preserved in the traditions of the locality). Diarmuid had to fly the country on account of his many crimes, for all Ireland was leagued against him. He sought the help of Henry II of England to reinstate him to his kingdom. This led to the Norman Invasion. when Diramuid died, he left his kingdom of Leinster to Strongbow, who had married his daughter, Eva."

Likewise the info listed on Collooney.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The Irish certainly had a different system, but I certainly would not call them "clans". The Irish system did not have primogeniture like the Scottish or Anglo-Norman system did. Primogeniture is the passing of land and title from father to son. This did not exist in Ireland. Instead, nobles in the kingdom would elect their next king, which meant that while families stayed in power, the power could transfer from uncle to nephew or cousin to cousin.

Actually, the system of land inheritance was pretty much the same in both countries until the late 12th and early 13th centuries. The last of the Irish High Kings did succeeded by primogeniture. This switch to bastard feudalism was brought about by several things: (1) a basic shift in the economy from barter to one based on money; (2) the ultimate failure of the traditional system of apportioning lands to heirs; (3) the rise of the power and influence of the Roman church over the indigenous Celtic church in Irish and Scots society. If you look at the feudal structure of 13th century society you will see it parallels the hierarchy of the Roman church. In short, the church led the way in imposing feudalism throughout Europe at this time. That it took hold in Ireland/Scotland was due to a shift in religious practice, economic changes in society, and the need to address the practical matter of land ownership.

[Begin Irish archaeology reference]
This is why the Irish built wooden defenses. When the Normans (and later the Anglo-Normans) invaded, they built large stone castles while the Irish built wooden structures and crannogs. They knew there was no guarantee that the large, expensive stone castles would be passed to their son like the Normans did. Instead, they spent their money on poets, lawyers, historians, and armies.
[End Irish archaeology reference]

A minor historical note: The Normans never invaded Ireland. MacMurrough-Kavanagh, King of Leinster, hired Norman knights to assist him in his war against Rory O'Conor, King of Connaught and High King of Ireland. MacMurrough paid Strongbow and his accompanying knights quite handsomely (he even gave his daughter to Strongbow in marriage), and incorporated them into his army. Not exactly an invasion.

As far as building in stone: Ireland was heavily forested, so there was little need to build in stone, what with massive oak trees in abundant supply, and a definite lack of experienced masons in the land. However, the higher castes (Irish society was divided by Brehon Law into numerous castes with little or no social mobility) did build in stone.

In Ireland the clan system did survive well into the Hibernio-Norman period and beyond. Perhaps the last great clan battle in Ireland was the battle of "Bloody Banks" (also known as the battle of Ravens Well) in the 17th century when the O'Tooles and the O'Byrnes fought it out on the northern edge of the town of Bray. According to some contemporary accounts more than a thousand men were killed in three days of fighting.

That the feudal-clan system ended in Ireland before it was extinguished in Scotland is a fact. The reason that it ended is due to the indigenous Irish aristocracy leaving their clans fully a century before the flight of the Scottish aristocracy following the Jacobite wars of the 18th century.

Today one sees in modern Ireland a resurgence of interest in "the clans of old" similar to that experienced in 19th century Scotland. Undoubtedly, as the Irish themselves become more "European" and less "Irish" this interest in Irish clans will continue to grow until it reaches a level similar to the social importance of the clans in Scotland.