Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[Phil]

I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...

Not the same kind of Mods - in this context an annual get together for Gaelic speakers celebrating their language and traditions. The National Mod it is called and regularly attracts competitors from Canada.

[Farlander]

In the 1950's if you wore highland dress your wore a tweed jacket and waistcoat during the day and, in the evening, a Montrose of Military double breasted doublet made of velvet...

Thank Phil, this does a nice job of answering many of my questions!

[beloitpiper]

If you got an invite to a royal knees-up then the Lord Chamberlain had a set of rules telling you exactly what you could wear, otherwise high society types knew exactly what to wear and proles like us just didn't get invited, couldn't afford the fancy dress, and had a great time getting drunk at ceilidhs.

Hahah, my family was definitely the latter!...still is, actually.

[Clockwork John]

My family too.

[Emmett O'Hegarty]

I am impressed by my fellow XMTS members...you ask a question and immediately receive intelligent and thorough answers. Well done.

[Nanook]

While some Savile Row tailors did (and still do) military tailoring, that work represented only a fraction of their everyday trade-- civilian clothing.

So developed Saville Row.

The short "riding coat" existed much earlier than the 1790s

One of the great inputs, beyond military, was equestrian fashion.

As for "le Petite Empereur" by 1814 Napoleon was tucked up on St. Helena, eating arsenic-laden wall paper, and having very little to do with influencing much of anything, let alone men's fashion.

I meant to type 1800s and not 1880s. I just am not allowed to edit anything I write here--- so the awkward policy of this forum towards me.

I'll merely point out that "trousers" in the from of trews, were worn fully half a century before the French Revolution.

Your missing the point of "fashion". The kilt, for example, was worn before the Scottish Romantic period but it was only during it and above all through the influence of, among others, the Highland Society of London that it came into its own as fashion. "Blue jeans" were worn since Jacob Youphes invented them but came into "fashion" (other than as working clothing) no earlier than the mid-1950s (Marlon Brando in "The Wild One" and a year later matched up with boots on James Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause") if not even the 1970s as mainstream fashion (the "designer jean").

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Nanook,
No offense intended, but I can't follow your line of argument-- for example you quote "equestrian fashion" as though it is somehow different than "civilian fashion"... huh? Anyhow this is getting too far off topic (Prince Charlie Coatees) to spend anymore time discussing things like the time line of the social acceptability of Levis (which I'd though made the big break though when Gene Autry had a tuxedo made from Levi denim before the second world war). Anyhow, I think we're going to have to amicably disagree on the military/civilian origins of the Prince Charlie coatee as we seem to be the only guys interested in it.

[Nanook]

Nanook,
No offense intended, but I can't follow your line of argument-- for example you quote "equestrian fashion" as though it is somehow different than "civilian fashion"... huh?

It was. Equestrian garb and fashion were quite distinct up well into the 20th century. The divisions become less as sporting clothing became business dress.

Anyhow this is getting too far off topic (Prince Charlie Coatees)

One could check with Wm Anderson to find out the dating on their earliest patterns for their "Kinloch Anderson Coatee".

Gene Autry had a tuxedo made from Levi denim before the second world war).

Gene Autry was a "singing cowboy" and hardly a role model of fashion except for other "singing cowboys". He was never hip or cool but the counter pole to the urban chic fashion of Fred Astaire as someone for the masses to want to identify with rather than aspire to become.

we seem to be the only guys interested in it.

One can't judge the interest by the volume of participation.

[Phil]

The Prince Charlie is a very similar cut to the type of mess jackets worn by the military and is probably a "civilianised" version. Officers would wear their full dress uniforms to social events and civilians would want something similar to look as good and impress the ladies - it just didn't have the big epaulettes and silver or gold braid. The double breasted Montrose is also known as a military doublet and no doubt has similar origins. There does not appear to be any equestrian link though. The type of jacket worn by the hunting fraternity (the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible) was generally bright red (pink they call it) and a longer jacket but without any of the embellishments such as cuff details, epaulettes, silver buttons, tashes etc.

[Jock Scot]

The Prince Charlie is a very similar cut to the type of mess jackets worn by the military and is probably a "civilianised" version. Officers would wear their full dress uniforms to social events and civilians would want something similar to look as good and impress the ladies - it just didn't have the big epaulettes and silver or gold braid. The double breasted Montrose is also known as a military doublet and no doubt has similar origins. There does not appear to be any equestrian link though. The type of jacket worn by the hunting fraternity (the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible) was generally bright red (pink they call it) and a longer jacket but without any of the embellishments such as cuff details, epaulettes, silver buttons, tashes etc.

I have seen many hunting pictures,of the 1800's period,where the huntsmen are wearing a jacket with short tails very much like a PC.My old hunting jacket,cut more like a long sports coat, was yellow(lemon we call it) with silver crested buttons,green collar with a silver bullion fox on either side of the collar.