A trans-Atlantic thing?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That's a wonderful idea. I have not seen the formal waistcoat listed for sale apart from a PC, though. Any pointers?

Some of the budget formal-wear outfits have a "backless" one like the white pique vest... I'm considering making a full-back version, using a suit vest and a white one for a hybrid pattern.

PC waistcoats should be available from any kilt rental store. If that fails try Gaelic Themes (www.gaeilcthemes.com) or some of our X Marks advertisers. You should be able to get a black 3 button from Marlow White uniforms (sorry, don't know their web address off the top of my head) or from your local tux shop. You can get the silver buttons from some of our X Marks guys. I'd avoid silver buttons on the six button waistcoat as this is way too flashy for daywear or evening wear with a four-in-hand tie.

Despite what you may see at the Oscars or on this site, scrunchy ties really don't work with a low-cut waistcoat. The lines are all wrong, destroying both the symmetry and balance of the look. There are two basic fashion rules here (and they are rules, not merely opinions) :

(1) high-cut waistcoats should not be worn with low-cut jackets.
(2) four-in-hand ties should not be worn with low cut waistcoats.

The purpose of the low-cut waistcoat is to display as much white shirt as possible. Adding a four-in-hand tie covers up the middle of the shirt (hiding a beer stain, perhaps?) and creates a striped effect, which is far from flattering to the male figure (especially if one is chubby, fat, or obese).

[Bugbear]

That Gaelic Themes address was missing a letter, but this link works. Gaelic Themes
Also, Military Uniforms by Marlow White


More good advice. Thanks, MacMillan of Rathdown.

I think I understand the math for the most part.

There is, however, a lot of talk of day wear being accessorized with brown (shoes, belt and sporen), although I guess you wouldn't have a belt with the waistcoat... The mixing of brown accessories with black jacket and waistcoat worries me, though. Would you wear a black sporran and shoes for the day wear?

[fluter]

Wouldn't the vests offered by Rocky at USAK fall under that category?

Answered my own question: Celtic Croft has the formal 3 button vest.

USAK lists the 5 button vest for the Argyll---but if you want the Argyll jacket with a 5- and a 3-button vest, it wasn't immediately obvious how to put it all together. I'm sure any of our sponsors could get one, I just had not seen it listed explicitly.

[Alan H]

I attend about two, maybe three events which qualify as "black tie" a year. In fact, I exaggerate here because of those events a couple of them are attending the San Francisco Symphony, and I can easily do that in four-in-hand tie and tweed jacket. Heck people show up in blue jeans, if it's a weeknight concert. I just choose to wear black tie, sometimes for Saturday Night concerts. So the only event to which I feel somewhat obligated to wear black tie is in fact the X-Marks The Scot, Nor Cal Rabble Burns Night and the truth is that I could easily wear the tweed jacket to that and nobody would care. We're more about having our kilt-wearing friends around and having fun than standing on ceremony and giving folks the eye if they're not kitted out "correctly". Wear what you have and come on down to our Burns Nigh....the people are friendly, the haggis is warm and the whisky is good.

I used to play in a "Society Orchestra" in which, if we played during dinner we *MIGHT* don white dinner jackets instead of tuxedo jackets. But an actual "white tie" event? I've never in my lifetime attended one and don't ever expect to. So for me, the most formal thing I'd expect to attend is black tie, and for that I see men wearing Prince Charlie Coatees and black Argyll jackets. I happened to like the look of the Spencer (Eton) Jacket, since it closely resembles the military Mess Jacket.

What first alerted me to this option was actually.....horrors!....a picture on the Sport Kilt Website of a US Naval Officer wearing his Mess Jacket with a kilt. It looked great. Thus began my search for a Mess Jacket sans insignia, and from there, the Spencer (Eton) jacket. I found one on ebay, an ex-rental that was in very good shape. The nice thing about the Spencer (Eton) jacket is that it seems to me that it's fine to wear the thing without a waistcoat, and with a nice kilt belt. I happened to pick up a backless three-button vest from Uniformalwearhouse. It's identical to the backless vest sold by Marlow, BTW.....just costs about a third the price. I replaced the buttons with round, pewter ones with a celtic theme and this works fine.

Of course I've seen Pipers Doublets, but I've never seen any other sort of Doublet here in California.

and so, in summary, FOR MY LIFE in which "white tie" is nonexistant, the Spencer jacket with three-button vest and a black bow tie does me just fine, and fits in with the mixture of PC's and Argylls.

[Chef]

There is, however, a lot of talk of day wear being accessorized with brown (shoes, belt and sporen), although I guess you wouldn't have a belt with the waistcoat... The mixing of brown accessories with black jacket and waistcoat worries me, though. Would you wear a black sporran and shoes for the day wear?

Black accessories are acceptable for day wear, it is brown that is not considered acceptable for evening wear. With a black Argyle you would use black accessories. This also cuts your costs by not requiring to sets of accessories.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Black accessories are acceptable for day wear, it is brown that is not considered acceptable for evening wear. With a black Argyle you would use black accessories. This also cuts your costs by not requiring two sets of accessories.

As in most things (I swear I don't know how he does it) Chef is not only dead right, but ahead of the curve. Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Nick the DSM]

i think i'll wait on getting formal stuff for kilts as they look expensive and i will only wear em once and out grow em. however when high school graduation comes, i'll rent em.

[Bugbear]

* I'm removing my comments because I shouldn't have posted in this thread. I'm sorry.*

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

i think i'll wait on getting formal stuff for kilts as they look expensive and i will only wear em once and out grow em. however when high school graduation comes, i'll rent em.

If you've got everything else, renting is generally your best bet, unless you are going to rent quite often, in which case it might be cheaper in the long run to buy. Rental shops also sell off their stock on a regular basis so you might want to ask the manager what sort of rent-to-buy deal he'd be prepared to cut you.

[McClef]

Despite what you may see at the Oscars or on this site, scrunchy ties really don't work with a low-cut waistcoat. The lines are all wrong, destroying both the symmetry and balance of the look. There are two basic fashion rules here (and they are rules, not merely opinions) :


(2) four-in-hand ties should not be worn with low cut waistcoats.

The purpose of the low-cut waistcoat is to display as much white shirt as possible. Adding a four-in-hand tie covers up the middle of the shirt (hiding a beer stain, perhaps?) and creates a striped effect, which is far from flattering to the male figure (especially if one is chubby, fat, or obese).

I have to disagree with the "rules" here (if indeed they exist as opposed to a convention). Nobody has ever said that the pictures of me on X Marks showing me with PC and scrunchie look out of balance. You can argue that any tie (never heard the phrase "four-in-hand" before!) can have such an effect on any shirt because of what it obscures and argue that bow ties should always be worn with shirts because they do not obscure the middle of the shirt.

I shall be wearing a bow tie on Saturday rather than a scrunchie with my Welsh PC but it won't be a black one - it will be the matching tartan of my St Davids National Cilt.