Help with white tie

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Does Army full mess dress count as formal? If that is the case, I probably take the award for most formal events.

I would be wary about using a book from 1912 as a guide to modern court dress, especially as many class barriers have been broken down since that time. I would wear white tie, black tie, morning coat, full mess dress, or highland dress appropriately, but there are others who will show up at events wearing black tie or even suits these days. Cripes in the states, you even see blazers.

As one person pointed out, it is not unusual to see national costume at a formal ball in London, WDC, or Brussels. Traveling with the Army, I would be entertained by Arab or African wearing their native dress. I would look silly wearing full Arab dress as anything other than a costume.

Full highland dress is not really white tie. White tie is white tie and tails. While a full highland dress outfit can be worn to a white tie occasion, it should not be confused with white tie.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I would be wary about using a book from 1912 as a guide to modern court dress

I agree, although there has very little change since 1912 in the style of dress, undoubtedly the occasions on which court dress is worn have become fewer over the decades.

I chose to quote the 1912 edition of Dress Worn At Court because it covered all of the items worn in the illustration (which probably dates from the 1930's or 40's). Earlier editions would have included pistols and powder horns, something now dispensed with (except, perhaps, by some Americans).

Upon re-visiting the photograph of David Hepburn referred to in my original posting I note that he is actually wearing evening dress, and not court dress-- I should have looked beyond the velvet doublet, but was distracted by his sporran.

Full highland dress is not really white tie. White tie is white tie and tails. While a full highland dress outfit can be worn to a white tie occasion, it should not be confused with white tie.

I totally agree you: white tie is just that -- white tie. I am always faintly bemused when attending a formal function "south of the border" or "over the water" and someone shows up in "white tie" highland attire. True, it has its place at a "Scottish" function on Halkin Street, but it always looks faintly "costumey" at the Banqueting Hall in Westminster. But then I'm one of those fuddy-duddies who believes that you don't wear highland attire outside of Scotland, unless at a Scottish event.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

I would strongly disagree with you about the change in costume since 1912, there has been much more of a trend to become less formal. That is backed up by my acquaintances in the "rag trade". As you point out, the costume has dropped the firearms and so forth. Also, People are wearing PC, rather than doublets. Some folk try to get by with black argyll jackets.

I would look pretty silly at a Basketmakers Guild Banquet in my montrose doublet, but would be accepted in DJ. I've seen people in Suits at these occasions. Usually, they are guests at these events. The standard of dress has gone WAY DOWN in the past 100 years.

I would suggest full formal Scottish attire if you are going formal, but that picture is a bit over dressed for most people these days. E.g., Fly plaids are considered optional. I have a Montrose doublet and jabot, but I think that would be going to be difficult to get the outfit together quickly. Just the tartan hose is going to take a while since I don't know of any place that sells them off the peg.

Mixing white tie elements with Scottish attire is also off.

I'm glad we agree on when appropriate to wear Highland wear.

[McClef]

We should also be careful not to mix the phrase highland wear and formal Scottish dress.

A kilt with any combination of style, casual dressy or formal can be seen as highland wear.

I am sure that nobody would wish to limit the wearing of the kilt to inside Scotland or at a Scottish event.

[Coemgen]

White tie is just that, white tie, and the rules are the same whether kilted or in tails.

Mixing white tie elements with Scottish attire is also off.

[fluter]

Yes, I too. I'd seen the wikipedia reference, but was taking it with a large grain of salt. Else-thread, I noted someone say that PC and white tie was not "on." While it seems like a natural combination, I still don't know for sure!

I was interested in highland dress when I was a teenager, and then my attention was distracted for about 40 years... So I'm basically a newbie with only a couple of opinions of my own.

1. Wear only a white waistcoat. You can buy one pretty cheap at someplace like Burlington Coat Factory.

Uniformalwearhouse can supply the white pique waistcoat, shirt, and tie. they are quick and seem reliable.