Tartan tat kings go Scottish

[David Thornton]

With respect David, we are dealing with an almost unique situation.

Of course we need to be careful with ebay etc in our choices. But the tourists visiting Edinburgh are making purchase decisions on the spot and being mislead as to what they are buying, they will think that kilts are the same cost as a pair of breeks. They will think that anyone charging more is profiteering and won't compare like with like.

Even people with a budget deserve full information.

In the spirit of your post, I respectfully disagree. Edinburgh is not unique and mostly they are just meeting demand. My sister has an office in S Africa and one in Lexington KY so we travel quite a bit, I have business (and pleasure) dealings all over the world and I don't mind visiting when necessary. I see CRAP being sold everywhere. Tourists have money to spend on trash, so they buy trash in Scotland, Mexico, Argentina, Botswana, Australia, I could go on forever. Those who want authentic study and pay accordingly.

Breeks are fairly expensive as well. Retailers here want $179 and up. I am still kicking myself for not having a nice pair made when the dollar was worth something.

David

[James MacMillan]

My question is the same as others have raised and I haven't seen an answer.

Has anyone actually had one of the Gold Brothers kilts in their hands or wrapped around their waist?

I would be very interested in a side by side comparison.

I own a few SWK, USA, etc and several tanks.

Are the Gold Brothers kilts really the same as those that Jerry sells?

[ForresterModern]

My question is the same as others have raised and I haven't seen an answer.

Has anyone actually had one of the Gold Brothers kilts in their hands or wrapped around their waist?

I would be very interested in a side by side comparison.

I own a few SWK, USA, etc and several tanks.

Are the Gold Brothers kilts really the same as those that Jerry sells?

I bought two Gold Bros kilts from Heritage of Scotland just a couple months ago when they had a big online 20% sale, before I got far enough into this forum and their background to have been more suspicious enough to go elsewhere. Mine were not their off the peg non-wool extreme budget variety however. They were their standard 8 yard machine sewn kilt from their special range of select bargain tartans, a 16oz Ancient MacDonald made from HOE tartan (their Nevis range which is of slightly coarser quality weave and significantly lower per yard fabric price, but of genuine Scottish origin), and a 16oz Black Isle tartan by Marton Mills (a Borderlands mill also noted for reasonable quality fabric but not up to the luxury quality of the usual Lochcarron, Strathmore or the regular HOE fabrics). After the sale discount they each cost just at $300US with free shipping. Add another $120 to that for Customs tariffs brings each purchase price to $360 US or so. They arrived in right around a month after ordering. I had a problem when they arrived, as I had measured according to their techniques, and the waist and hip measurements were identical to my first kilt, a custom made 13 oz Forrester Modern (Strathmore) built to the exact same measurements by JRHiggins here in the states, which fits like a charm. The Gold Bros kilts seem made to an equal level of quality and design, but were clearly way too big, at least 2-3 inches in the waist and hips. I got two separate kilt specialists (one a maker herself and one a kilt rental/special order kilt vendor recently relocated from Scotland himself) to look at them and they agreed that they were both built too big for the sizes specified and needed to be modified. After working through Gold Bros online complaint system, I got a response three weeks later that there might be an error in building the kilts, but since they were both off by an equal amount they thought the error was likely in my measuring technique (not likely since my Higgins kilt fits superbly using the same measurements). GB offered to recheck them and resize them although I would have to pay for the shipping back to Scotland and then again back her to Phoenix, and if they thought the kilts were made to the measurements I had given them (most likely their assessment) then I would have to pay for the alterations as well, although a relatively small charge. They suggested instead that it would be cheaper to have someone instead do it locally, so I had Kathy Lare in Albequerque move the buckles/straps to bring them in a few inches to a now perfect fit. Another $100 for the repairs and shipping brought the total tab to around $410 per kilt, but at least they finally fit right and actually look and wear good. Both Kathy and the guy at the kilt rental place estimated their value at around $500 each without knowing the original price paid, but commented that they were both well made machine sewn kilts of quality build and good quality Scottish fabric, surprising them for their experience having seen and/or repaired other Gold Bros work in their past. And both kilts have a tag stating that they were both sewn in Scotland.

So all in all, considering my level of ignorance about the Gold Bros reputation at the time I ordered the kilts, I think I got a couple pretty well made kilts and a decent deal out of it all, although it would have been better if they had fit properly the first time or if they had just fixed the kits themselves without all the added expenses I would have had to incur.

Now comes the real question: Will I ever go back and buy another from them? Not sure at this point, but since I am going to Scotland for a couple weeks in June I will firsthand assess their businesses on the Royal Mile and let that help make up my mind Not really fond of their complaint response/cutomer service end of things right now, either. So not entirely happy, not singing their praises, but feeling pretty lucky that I got a couple good kilts at a reasonable price out of the deal, even acountingfor all the hassles.

[McClef]

It's not a case of banning Raphael it's a case of them being honest about their off the peg cheapies. With those there is no "little bit of Scotland" to take home.

They do do made to measure stuff which is what Forrester got and no doubt as they take over more kilt makers that they have put out of business they will make even more of these.

[Clockwork John]

My question is the same as others have raised and I haven't seen an answer.

Has anyone actually had one of the Gold Brothers kilts in their hands or wrapped around their waist?

I would be very interested in a side by side comparison.

I own a few SWK, USA, etc and several tanks.

Are the Gold Brothers kilts really the same as those that Jerry sells?

I own two Gold Brothers kilts. In Fact, the kilt I wore to the Magic Castle came from a Gold Bros shop. The other one I own was about half the price, and it is crap.

I couldn't compare them to SWK as I don't have one, but I'm very happy with my Campbell of Argyll from the Gold Brothers.

[BoldHighlander]

I've been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that what most everyone is missing, and the point I see McClef making over and over, is this (and I'll say it slow so everyone gets it):

"TRUTH IN ADVERTISING"

In other words if the Gold Bros weren't advertising their cheaper off-the-peg kilts as "made in Scotland" (which these kilts aren't) then there wouldn't be such a controversy. Then you all could just debate the merits of quality & craftsmanship.

[Monkey@Arms]

I've been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that what most everyone is missing, and the point I see McClef making over and over, is this (and I'll say it slow so everyone gets it):

"TRUTH IN ADVERTISING"

In other words if the Gold Bros weren't advertising their cheaper off-the-peg kilts as "made in Scotland" (which these kilts aren't) then there wouldn't be such a controversy. Then you all could just debate the merits of quality & craftsmanship.

Actually I believe they advertise them as "Designed in Scotland", but I agree that instead of all the bitching and moaning, a simple truth in advertising law would solve a lot of problems. That does not require defining a Scottish Kilt or all the other protectionist measures, just a label listing the place of origin of the fabric and manufacture.

I'd also once again point out that the GB kilts that sell for under one hundred pounds do not compete in the same segment of the market as custom made kilts. But perhaps some rival kilt sellers prefer publicity to solutions.

Best

Jake

[McClef]

Thanks BoldHighlander.

I'm a tenacious cuss I know!

Their cheapies don't use the phrase "Made in Scotland" - they have on the label "Scottish Highland KILT Authentic Woven Tartan - Designed in Scotland."

The label then gives the tartan name and the waist size.

What do people see? The words Scottish, Kilt, Highland, Tartan and Scotland and what impression does that make? The mind links with Scotland, just as the name of their shops includes it. The phrase "Kilt Maker" is somewhat absent apart from those they have acquired such as John Morrison and then they are happy to apply the "Made in Scotland" label.

The bulk of their sales is still with the cheapie off the peg ones - where is the honest labelling there?

[Nanook]

Their cheapies don't use the phrase "Made in Scotland" - they have on the label "Scottish Highland KILT Authentic Woven Tartan - Designed in Scotland."

They are 1) Scottish Highland KIlt (just not terribly fine in quality and made somewhere other than Scotland) 2) Use some kind of woven cloth (albeit not wool and not from Scottish sheep) 3) Are designed in Scotland (I have no doubt that the design and specifications have come from the Gold Bros. which are a Scottish Company). The Singh Gold family are as Scottish, after all, as Sir Montague Burton (founder of Burtons), Michael Marks (co-founder of Marks and Spenser) were English. That goes for almost the entire garment industry of Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow...... And even the "Gentile" shops of Savile Row... Following the great wave of Jewish migration from czarist Russia, not only did Jewish tailors produce mass goods in the East End but also the West End and Savile Row (by the 1920s most Savile Row shops used "cheap Jewish tailors"). In the US it was really not much different (with a slightly different demographics which included a large wave of Italian tailors among the 2 million that arrived between 1900 and 1910).

What do people see? The words Scottish, Kilt, Highland, Tartan and Scotland and what impression does that make?

And what impression does a pair of Nike shoes? Ralph Lauren pullover? Levis jeans (an American household staple but they aren't made in America anymore), Tommy Hilfiger shirt,.... None of it "made in the USA". And what does garment production in the USA look like? Sweat shops and piece-rate "sub-contractors" continue to feed on an "undocumented" and easily exploited workforce.

If you were to apply the demand that "Scottish kilts" be labeled as to the source of their tartans, the wool and the workmanship.. (why not even the means of production as there are differences between individual kilt makers and the increasingly common assembly line methods) and apply it to nearly any other items in the shops.. things were look quite odd.. The $600 English shoe made by subcontractors in Spain or Romania.. Clothing is global! How about American fried chicken? China imports chicken feet from the US and the US imports cheap chickens from Thailand. An American brand is no guarantee that its "Made in America" perhaps a good bet that its probably not. Back to shoes.. Most of the European dress shoes that are sold in the American market under American labels at most of the mainstream shops and dept stores are not even made in Europe but.. India.. not really even India.. but China using Indian leather (global sub-contracting, environment and fun with national origin labeling)... Clothing.. Used to be a lot was made in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, North Africa (for the US also Mexico).. but now with the quotas off.. its China. Already nearly 80 percent of the U.S. clothing market!

And even Scottish made clothing.. Where do you think the material likely comes from? "Made in Scotland" does not mean entirely made in Scotland. Even the finest "made in Scotland" kilt probably has imported leather straps and buckles. "Made in.." does not also say anything about "who".

And there is a niche in US. Shoes and clothing continue to be made to high standards (ecological and human). Dov Charney (from Westmount, Montreal) has had great success with "American Apparel": made in Los Angeles without sweat shops and piece price but $13 minimum wage (contrasted to some of the big US designer labels that have time and again found among their textiles goods produced using child and slave labour via sub-contractors in places that make China look good).....

Truth? Truth of the matter.. Why get so upset with the Scottish Singh-Gold family and not with WPG in Salinas? His "army" kilts are not Scottish (and not designed in Scotland) but made in Pakistan. They are fine kilts but not very accurate reproductions and easy to spot when compared to the "real thing" (which is natural given that "real" army kilts were completely handsewn and made by some of the best shops including Wm Anderson and Thomas Gordon & Sons using very special cloth made by Robert Noble of Peebles).

And who provides jobs in Scotland?

[McClef]

They are 1) Scottish Highland KIlt (just not terribly fine in quality and made somewhere other than Scotland) 2) Use some kind of woven cloth (albeit not wool and not from Scottish sheep) 3) Are designed in Scotland (I have no doubt that the design and specifications have come from the Gold Bros. which are a Scottish Company). The Singh Gold family are as Scottish, after all, as Sir Montague Burton (founder of Burtons), Michael Marks (co-founder of Marks and Spenser) were English.

All of what you say above could be argued but the impression the label seeks to create isn't how Scottish the Golds are but how Scottish their product is. The Golds aren't even the only concern to sell these kilts with this label - I have seen them in other places such as John O'Groats also so it's unlikely they are unique to them to begin with. The composition of the cloth is not given and as we have seen from other posts they are a potential fire hazard so information regarding composition could be vital. Most other clothing carries this information, wherever it's made in the global market.

If you were to apply the demand that "Scottish kilts" be labeled as to the source of their tartans, the wool and the workmanship.. (why not even the means of production as there are differences between individual kilt makers and the increasingly common assembly line methods) and apply it to nearly any other items in the shops.. things were look quite odd..

And even Scottish made clothing.. Where do you think the material likely comes from? "Made in Scotland" does not mean entirely made in Scotland. Even the finest "made in Scotland" kilt probably has imported leather straps and buckles. "Made in.." does not also say anything about "who".

I was one of those who criticised Howie's definition that a Scottish kilt had to be hand sewn. No cotton is grown in Scotland so a cotton garment saying "Made in Scotland" would of course refer only to the country of manufacture.

But it does mean that Scottish workers have been involved. It is of course impossible to always have everything 100% - heck even if the leather straps and buckles were Scottish, there is still COTTON involved in the sewing! But what percentage of a cheapie can really claim anything Scottish apart from its appearance and the fact that is is offered for sale there?

Truth? Truth of the matter.. Why get so upset with the Scottish Singh-Gold family and not with WPG in Salinas? His "army" kilts are not Scottish (and not designed in Scotland) but made in Pakistan. They are fine kilts but not very accurate reproductions and easy to spot when compared to the "real thing" (which is natural given that "real" army kilts were completely handsewn and made by some of the best shops including Wm Anderson and Thomas Gordon & Sons using very special cloth made by Robert Noble of Peebles).

And who provides jobs in Scotland?

I know nothing of WPG in terms of seeing and handling and I also do not know what is shown on the label. But I do know they are not located in the Scottish capital with many shops in the tourist areas purporting to be what they are not. It's virtually a unique situation.

As to the jobs, my experience of looking in their shops is that when you are approached by a member of staff they are more likely to be from an eastern Europe EC country who are often unable to answer questions. Heck in one shop I saw a guy trying a cheapie on and he had it the classic wrong way around with the pleats at he front - the staff had done nothing to correct him - I had to do it! Some shops had signs in advertising for staff but Scots seem reluctant to apply for the positions.