Scottish Swords

[gilmore]

You may have been on the right track originally.

"Ireland, like modern Central Africa, would receive all her civilised weapons from her neighbours. The Picts of Scotland would transmit a knowledge of iron-working and of the Sword to the Scotti or Picts of the north-east of Hibernia. This is made evident by the names of the articles. CLAJDEAM or CLAJDJM, the Welsh kledyv, is simply gladius; and TUCA is ‘tuck,’ or a clerk’s Sword."---http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Book_of_the_Sword.htm

[thanmuwa]

You may have been on the right track originally.

"Ireland, like modern Central Africa, would receive all her civilised weapons from her neighbours. The Picts of Scotland would transmit a knowledge of iron-working and of the Sword to the Scotti or Picts of the north-east of Hibernia. This is made evident by the names of the articles. CLAJDEAM or CLAJDJM, the Welsh kledyv, is simply gladius; and TUCA is ‘tuck,’ or a clerk’s Sword."---http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Book_of_the_Sword.htm

That guy is... joyfully free from the restrictions of logic. The Irish word Claiomh (sword) has much closer etymological links with the older Gaulish word (which he mentions higher in the same article!) "Claidab". Many examples of Bronze swords and knives (made with copper from Irish mines) have been found in Ireland, so knowledge of the sword predates the iron age. I was diving with a guy in the Shannon once when he found a perfect example of a bronze dagger. It was cool.

Aside: I went to that website out of interest.... Wow, truly nasty. Heavy pinch of salt advised. The paragraph previous to the one you quoted is....

"The modern Irish, who in historical falsification certainly rival, if they do not excel, the Hindús, claim for their ancestry an exalted grade of culture. They found their pretensions upon illuminated manuscripts and similar works of high art; but it is far easier to account for these triumphs as the exceptional labours of students who wandered to the classic regions about the Mediterranean. If ancient Ireland ever was anything but savage, where, let us ask, are the ruins that show any sign of civilisation? A people of artists does not pig in wooden shanties, surrounded by a rude vallum of earth-work. "

For those who don't know enough about Ireland to realise that this is purely viciousness, the illuminated manuscripts s/he refers to, such as the book of Kells etc., were often found in or near ruins like Clonmacnoise and (many) others. Ireland also has what is reputed to be the oldest engineered building in the world in Newgrange and a continuum of ruins eg Dun Aonghus exist between these two extremes of age. But I guess actual evidence just stands in the way of this guy's preconceptions...

[xena]

For those who don't know enough about Ireland to realise that this is purely viciousness, the illuminated manuscripts s/he refers to, such as the book of Kells etc., were often found in or near ruins like Clonmacnoise and (many) others. Ireland also has what is reputed to be the oldest engineered building in the world in Newgrange and a continuum of ruins eg Dun Aonghus exist between these two extremes of age. But I guess actual evidence just stands in the way of this guy's preconceptions...

Plus, different climates account for different ruins surviving. In dry deserts, like Egypt, lots of stuff will last for a very long time. In temperate regions with high wind and rain activity... not so much.

Archaeology is a science that is far from simple, and has a remarkable number of factors, not all of which are obvious to the average person.

That, however, doesn't stop people from pontificating with silly ideas, though.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Further to Puffer's notes above, there is a good argument to made that the Scottish basket hilt sword may trace it roots back to, of all places, Montenegro! Lord Archibald Campbell (in Highland Dress, Arms and Ornament) thought enough of this theory to include the whole of a letter which appeared in The Times on July 17, 1894 in which the author, W.J. Stillman, writing from Rome, put forward a very convincing case that the origins of the Scottish basket hilt sword were the Venetian Schiavone, which was imported to that city by Zetans (from present day Montenego) who were mercenaries employed by the Doge to keep the roads open in those areas of the Balkans where trade was conducted overland, rather than by sea.

Likewise, as Puffer stated, many, if not most, "good blades" came from Germany, but there is ample evidence that the Scots prized their "good Spanish blades" above all others. Likewise, the most famous blades were those made by Andrea Ferrara, a Lombard, born about 1530, and recognized as a premier sword smith by Giovan Mattheo Cigogna in his Tratto Militare published in Venice in 1583. In point of fact Ferrara was probably dead by 1610, but knock-offs of his blades continued to be manufactured until at least the first quarter of the 18th century. Most of these were made in Germany, where blade making had become a major industry, and to help sales in the "Schottich" market, many were marked "Andrea Ferarra" (rather like the rash of Chinese swords now flooding the market bearing the name and logo of the (now defunct) Wilkinson Sword Company).

[puffer]

Further to Puffer's notes above, there is a good argument to made that the Scottish basket hilt sword may trace it roots back to, of all places, Montenegro! Lord Archibald Campbell (in Highland Dress, Arms and Ornament) thought enough of this theory to include the whole of a letter which appeared in The Times on July 17, 1894 in which the author, W.J. Stillman, writing from Rome, put forward a very convincing case that the origins of the Scottish basket hilt sword were the Venetian Schiavone, which was imported to that city by Zetans (from present day Montenego) who were mercenaries employed by the Doge to keep the roads open in those areas of the Balkans where trade was conducted overland, rather than by sea.
.

More on the above. NOTE- info is from this site. http://www.myarmoury.com/

Again there is, as always some "discussion" as to who influenced whom & how. But It appears that the "S.Ger/Venetian types were the "forerunners".



Some examples of "later" style (ca 1700s) SCHIAVONAs



Here are some examples of "GER." (late ca 1500s- ???)



This is a "documented" GER. style used in the Eng/Lowland Borderland. (ca 1570s



Puffer