Clan adoption

[CDNSushi]

Thanks for the thoughts thus far gentlemen... To reiterate, though: JSFMACLJR: you seem to be referring to a historical situation (which is fine -- I like history) but it doesn't seem to me that it would happen nowadays. As for you Phil, you obviously speaking of the clan societies today. Without commenting on whether or not your position is tenable, let me ask this as a followup question: Is there such thing as a clan outside its clan society?

[macwilkin]

Some scholars estimate that only 25-30% of all Scottish surnames have a connection to Highland clan, so in reality, your friend would in some ways do better to join a St. Andrew's/Caledonian Society. Some (but not all) of these societies have "open" memberships in that anyone with an interest in Scotland may join as members.

For those who choose that route, the district tartan is always an option, be it a national, provincial, state or another form of universal tartan, such as the Caledonia tartan.

Yours aye,

Todd

[macwilkin]

Thanks for the thoughts thus far gentlemen... To reiterate, though: JSFMACLJR: you seem to be referring to a historical situation (which is fine -- I like history) but it doesn't seem to me that it would happen nowadays.

While the idea of a Bond of Manrent seems quaint, I would imagine that it would be up to individual chief to choose to accept such a document. I actually have an example version in a book in my personal library.

T.

[Phil]

As for you Phil, you obviously speaking of the clan societies today. Without commenting on whether or not your position is tenable, let me ask this as a followup question: Is there such thing as a clan outside its clan society?

Sorry if I came across as a bit cynical but I don't wish to denigrate anyone's harmless enjoyment in joining a clan society. I think there still are a few genuine clans although how active they are I'm afraid I can't tell as I have no interest in that direction but maybe others can tell you. My impression, though, is that many are fairly recent in origin and mostly based in North America and, while they do have members in other countries, tend to be mainly America-centric in their activities, get-togethers etc.

[macwilkin]

Sorry if I came across as a bit cynical but I don't wish to denigrate anyone's harmless enjoyment in joining a clan society. I think there still are a few genuine clans although how active they are I'm afraid I can't tell as I have no interest in that direction but maybe others can tell you. My impression, though, is that many are fairly recent in origin and mostly based in North America and, while they do have members in other countries, tend to be mainly America-centric in their activities, get-togethers etc.

Well...not really. You will find clan societies across the globe. Besides the US, you will find them in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc. To imply that they are all "America-centric" just isn't correct, especially since a number of Chiefs live in Commonwealth countries and in the US. A number of clan societies will have international gatherings in Scotland.

Again, Phil, instead of being so down on us Yanks, why don't you get to know us first?Sure, there are plenty in the Braveheart/Brigadoon crowd, but there are also quite a few of us that do make a honest & sincere effort to honor our heritage.

T.

[ThistleDown]

Reference the Standing Council of Chiefs: "Who Is A Member Of A Clan?
Every person who has the same surname as the chief is deemed to be a member of the clan. Equally a person who offers allegiance to the chief is recognised as a member of the clan unless the chief decides that he will not accept that person’s allegiance."

[CDNSushi]

Reference the Standing Council of Chiefs: "Who Is A Member Of A Clan?
Every person who has the same surname as the chief is deemed to be a member of the clan. Equally a person who offers allegiance to the chief is recognised as a member of the clan unless the chief decides that he will not accept that person’s allegiance."

Hmm... So, bizarre example here, but for the sake of argument, if I were to change my legal last name to "MacDonald" in a court of law (in my corner of the world), does that make me a member of the clan?

Followup question: Has anyone even heard of someone offering allegiance to a clan chief in the past half-century? Like the concept of manrent, this seems like a concept of eras and centuries gone by.

I'm rather enjoying this thread -- I'm learning a lot! :-)

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hmm... So, bizarre example here, but for the sake of argument, if I were to change my legal last name to "MacDonald" in a court of law (in my corner of the world), does that make me a member of the clan?

I am of the opinion than proving descent from some ancient ancestor is really far too restrictive-- if it has ever actually existed as an historical requirement of clan membership. I believe that legally changing your name to "M'Donald" would fullfill part of the requirement; the rest would come down to acknowledging the chief, wearing his badge, and following Scottish heraldic custom.

Followup question: Has anyone even heard of someone offering allegiance to a clan chief in the past half-century? Like the concept of manrent, this seems like a concept of eras and centuries gone by.

Oh Yes. It isn't an uncommon occurrence at all. I have been present when clansmen, in Scotland, have sworn fealty at the inauguration of their chief. Although this is beyond the ken of some, many Scots still take "clanship" very seriously. They may not flaunt it publicly, but like their religious faith, it is something deeply held.

[Chas]

Hmm... So, bizarre example here, but for the sake of argument, if I were to change my legal last name to "MacDonald" in a court of law (in my corner of the world), does that make me a member of the clan?

Conversely, what about the 'MacDonald' child who is orphaned and is then raised by the Oberhumpelstinkendorf family - does he stop being a 'MacDonald'?

There is one member of X Marks whose parents are both middle European. They were each orphaned and adopted in the US by families whose surnames were MacSomething. He knows all this but is a firm believer in his Celtic/Scottish/Highland roots and heritage. He is a member of both the Clan Societies (Scottish and US). Is he a member of a clan? He believes so - by his membership of the societies and by virtue of him 'being' a MacSomething. I for one agree with him.

Roots/heritage/tradition have to start somewhere.

Regards

Chas

[CDNSushi]

heritage/tradition have to start somewhere.

Well put, sir.