Irish wore kilts?

[macwilkin]

All I could show you is what the kiltmakers themselves say, and I would have to find it first. Nonetheless, they often do claim that their fathers or more likely grandfathers owned similar concerns that made kilts and/or bagpipes for the British.

Don't forget that not all uniform is issued, some of it is bought. There are military men on here who can tell you about having to buy uniform, and I know that in England and other places there have always been enterprising tailors that made uniforms that fit a little better and were maybe made from a little better cloth than the official issue, often for lower cost.

There really is no necessity for the British Army to have been involved, and it probably wasn't. All that would be necessary would be for the Indians (then, now Pakistanis since partition) to have made uniform items and for the British soldiers to have bought them with their own money. I would be more surprised if that had not happened, so I have no trouble believing that it did. Anyone who had to buy their own uniform and found that they could buy items locally in a low cost country would jump at the chance to save some money.

As a military historian, I am quite aware of field-expedient modficiations and private purchases by soldiers to uniform and kit. All I am asking is to see some documentation for such a claim. I can document such stories with primary sources from the Wilson's Creek Campaign in the Summer of 1861, for example -- Pvt. Eugene Ware of the 1st Iowa Infantry frequently discusses replacing his worn out volunteer's uniform with bits of civilian attire purchased along the route of march in his book The Lyon Campaign.

I'm not doubting that it didn't happen, but until I see something that proves it, I'm skeptical. It might be worth an e-mail to Diana Henderson, a noted scholar on the Highland Regiments, for her opinion.

T,

[Dan R Porter]

Nice Kilt

[george7]

Nice Kilt

That might be one of the most wise things said in this thread (or any thread here, for that matter)

[Swampthing]

Nice Kilt

Trying to get more posts are we, eh? ;)

[Nick the DSM]

Nice Kilt

I agree, LOOK AT THE PLEATS!

[george7]

Nice Kilt

It's something you say when there's really nothing left or better to say.

[GDub]

It's something you say when there's really nothing left or better to say.

Aye, but there's always reiterating!

[O'Callaghan]

As a military historian, I am quite aware of field-expedient modficiations and private purchases by soldiers to uniform and kit. All I am asking is to see some documentation for such a claim. I can document such stories with primary sources from the Wilson's Creek Campaign in the Summer of 1861, for example -- Pvt. Eugene Ware of the 1st Iowa Infantry frequently discusses replacing his worn out volunteer's uniform with bits of civilian attire purchased along the route of march in his book The Lyon Campaign.

I'm not doubting that it didn't happen, but until I see something that proves it, I'm skeptical. It might be worth an e-mail to Diana Henderson, a noted scholar on the Highland Regiments, for her opinion.

T,

I have never claimed to be a historian, but I have personally known, and know currently, military people who have had to buy uniform. (ETA: There was even someone on here who was in the Royal Scottish Regiment and posted that he had bought his own uniform kilt!) The Pakistani kiltmakers claim their families made kilts for the British in the Raj, and I find their claims plausible and have no reason to disbelieve them. I don't think anyone said they had government contracts, and there is no need for that to have been the case for their claims to be true. I suppose I'm just not from Missouri, but by all means e-mail your contact.

What is more interesting to me, is that in between the end of the Raj and the advent of the Internet (quite a gap I'm sure you'll agree) they do seem to have had an ongoing business outfitting pipe bands. Quite who the middlemen were I'm not entirely sure, but I strongly suspect Scottish kiltmakers to have been involved!

I recall there was an anecdote, which I think was posted on here, where someone was told by his old Scots grandmother I think, that their family had no tartan, but was a 'Bumby clan'. This was apparently a humorous reference to ex-pipe band kilts sold secondhand in Scotland in random, unregistered tartans, which she (the old Scots grannie) said were called 'Bumby kilts'. In fact, Bumby Enterprises still makes kilts today ... in Sialkot, Pakistan!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Actually, O'Callaghan, officers have always purchased their uniforms. Other ranks have them issued to them. Interestingly, my son's Godfather had one of his RAF uniforms tailored by Brooks Brothers in New York during WWII--

On a totally different, but related, matter could you provide a link or an address for Bumby Enterprises in Sialkot, Pakistan? I Googled them, but nothing came up...

[slohairt]

The O’Dinan strikes again! (I think that was the name or “title” of the person who originally wrote the article started all of this nonsense.)

Certainly one hundred or more years of Irish nationalists wearing the kilt is considered long enough to be a tradition by some. There’s nothing wrong in admitting that the Irish saffron kilt, or any other solid-coloured Irish kilt for that matter, is based on the Scottish Highland kilt. I think that’s the real issue with many of these bogus claims. These pseudo-historians (and not all of them are Irish) try to create an ancient pedigree for the Irish kilt, when there simply isn’t one.

The best that can be said is when the Irish kilt is worn with a modern ‘brat’ or ‘brath’ (which is really just a fly plaid folded differently) it is loosely meant to represent the léine and brat. Of course, it doesn’t really resemble the léine and brat at all; the richer colour, as mentioned in an earlier post, is due to the fact that wool takes dye much more readily than linen. I doubt very much that the léine was really dyed with saffron. I suspect that ‘saffron’ was a catch-all term that referred to the shade itself and encompassed a wide range of natural dyeing agents.

This was the best these men could come up with. I’m sure some Irish nationalists in the 19th Century examined the léine and brat and experimented with ways to modernize it. Unfortunately, they couldn’t design anything that didn’t look as if the wearer just stepped out of a Renaissance Fair. (Not that there’s anything wrong with RenFairs!) Instead, they turned to their fellow Gaels for inspiration. Here were a closely-related people who did have traditional attire easily adaptable to modern accessories and convention. In other words, you could wear a shirt, tie, and jacket with it. Such cultural borrowings were common throughout Europe, just not in such comparatively recent times. It would be naïve to suggest that each European culture came up with its own unique form of dress without the slightest bit of influence from their neighbours!

So, they took something, adapted it, and made it their own. There’s nothing inferior with that at all. Just remember that when you borrow something, it’s best to acknowledge where it originally came from. After all, the Scottish Highlanders made no secret of the origin of their language or the name of their country.