"NOWHERE does box pleated kilts!"

[Ancienne Alliance]

This picture of me was taken some years back during Highland games held in Switzerland.

On this photo Chrystel caught me distastefully turning away from some of the worst kilts I’ve ever seen in my life.

I’m afraid they weren’t box pleated at all…





Best,

Robert

[Jock Scot]

I don't think the nomenclature "civilian box pleated kilt" and "military box pleated kilt" is really all that accurate. By that I mean that I am a civilian and, if I wanted to, I could have an 8 yard box pleated kilt made (in the military style) in any tartan I wish and wear it in a civilian fashion. It's not limited to the military.

I think it is more reasonable to say "traditional box pleated kilt" and perhaps "modern box pleated kilt" referring to the four and eight yard styles, respectively. But really, the best way to distinguish them is just to say "four yard" and "eight yard."

More to write, but the dinner bell just rang....

Not sure I agree with you there Matt. The only box pleated kilt most Scots have seen, unknowingly probably, will have been worn by the Scottish regiments. So I do think civilian/military box pleat is a fair way to describe one from another.

[Alan H]

Team, I'd suggest not reading too much into this.

The woman hadn't seen, and doesn't make box pleated kilts. Fine.
The "box pleat" that she's familiar with, and that Jock Scot is familiar with is the military box pleat, and in their experience, not too many civilians in Scotland, wear them. Fine.

This is NOT a declaration that box pleat kilts are BAD, or that they're "unworthy", or "untraditional" or WRONG, somehow. It's just a statement that several people aren't familiar with them, and that people of their acquaintance aren't familiar with them.

Redshank thinks that after inspecting a 4-yard box pleat, he still prefers the 8 yard knife pleat that he's familiar with to the box pleat. What's wrong with that? He' s not saying that they're not historically valid, or they're not attractive, or that they're not "kilts" somehow. He just said that he prefers the knife pleated kilt that he's familiar with.

Relax, folks...

[Paul]

Team, I'd suggest not reading too much into this.

The woman hadn't seen, and doesn't make box pleated kilts. Fine.
The "box pleat" that she's familiar with, and that Jock Scot is familiar with is the military box pleat, and in their experience, not too many civilians in Scotland, wear them. Fine.

This is NOT a declaration that box pleat kilts are BAD, or that they're "unworthy", or "untraditional" or WRONG, somehow. It's just a statement that several people aren't familiar with them, and that people of their acquaintance aren't familiar with them.

Redshank thinks that after inspecting a 4-yard box pleat, he still prefers the 8 yard knife pleat that he's familiar with to the box pleat. What's wrong with that? He' s not saying that they're not historically valid, or they're not attractive, or that they're not "kilts" somehow. He just said that he prefers the knife pleated kilt that he's familiar with.

Relax, folks...

The woman basically doesnt know her market and what else is on offer. Her kilts looked pretty nice though!

[Redshank]

The woman basically doesnt know her market and what else is on offer. Her kilts looked pretty nice though!

Paul with all due respect, the woman does know her market, her market is for 8 yard knife pleated kilts, they are all she is asked for, and as such they are all she will be interested in.
Your request was very probably the first she has ever heard of the 4 yard box pleat of the kind that is popular stateside, now if she where to be asked more frequently,then, I am sure she would do some investigation and add them to her business.

Chris

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Not sure I agree with you there Matt. The only box pleated kilt most Scots have seen, unknowingly probably, will have been worn by the Scottish regiments. So I do think civilian/military box pleat is a fair way to describe one from another.

But, Jock, the problem is that the four yard box pleated kilts were originally worn by the military. The earliest one that has been documented was c. 1796 and was a Gordon Highlanders regimental kilt containing just over 3 yards of cloth and box pleated. All regiments wore box pleated kilts, made from nominally four yards of cloth, until the Gordons switched over to knife pleats in 1854.

Of course civilians wore box pleated kilts during this same era, as well. The only difference between the two (at first) was that the military kilts were pleated to stripe, while the civilian kilts were pleated to no pattern at all. Fairly soon, though (after about 1810-1815 or so) civilian kilts began copying the military fashion and these were pleated to the stripe. So at that point there really was no difference between the civilian and military kilts at all. They were all about four yards and box pleated to the stripe.

In more recent history, some of the regiments retained the box pleated style, albeit using a greater amount of material. Because civilian kilts were now almost invariably knife pleated, the box pleating style became more associated with the military. But many regiments also wore knife pleated kilts, so box pleating was certainly not the only style used in the military.

I think when you say, "military box pleated kilt" most people understand you to mean the modern 8 yard box pleated kilt. So I don't really have a problem with this term.

I just think that since the four yard box pleated kilt has a strong military history, as well, it's not quite accurate to refer to this as a "civilian box pleated kilt" as opposed to the modern 8 yard "military knife pleated kilt."

I think, especially when we are talking about a civilian looking to purchase a kilt for civilian wear, simply referring to the kilts by their yardage -- "four yard box pleated kilt" or "eight yard knife pleated kilt" -- is easy and avoids any confusion.

[Paul]

Paul with all due respect, the woman does know her market, her market is for 8 yard knife pleated kilts, they are all she is asked for, and as such they are all she will be interested in.
Your request was very probably the first she has ever heard of the 4 yard box pleat of the kind that is popular stateside, now if she where to be asked more frequently,then, I am sure she would do some investigation and add them to her business.

Chris

She doesnt know what other kiltmakers are offering... other kilt makers who do the exact same as her - but also know how to box pleat. Just about every single kiltmaker I've seen online or visited makes some type of box-pleated kilt - as well as standard pleats. These people are in the same market as this woman and she doesnt know what they offer.
Conclusion = she doesn't know her market.

[Alan H]

She doesnt know what other kiltmakers are offering... other kilt makers who do the exact same as her - but also know how to box pleat. Just about every single kiltmaker I've seen online or visited makes some type of box-pleated kilt - as well as standard pleats. These people are in the same market as this woman and she doesnt know what they offer.
Conclusion = she doesn't know her market.

Elsie Struehmeyer doesn't make box pleated kilts, and in fact she refused to have a "how to make a box-pleat kilt" appendix added to the book that she and Barb Tewksbury wrote; "The Art of Kiltmaking".

I don't think that Kathy Lare makes box pleat kilts, though I might be wrong. She does make Military Box Pleat kilts, though. USA Kilts, Freedom Kilts, neither of those advertisers on X Marks the Scot makes box pleat kilts, though I supposed if you requested one and were prepared to pay extra, they might do one up for you. Of course, these are all in the USA and Canada.

R kilts doesn't make box-pleat kilts, though again if you asked, Robert might turn one out for you. Robert MacDonald in Vancouver, CA doesn't make box pleat kilts though he very definitely makes military box pleated kilts. And so on. In fact, if you want a "commercial" kiltmaker to create your box pleat kilt here in North America, you'll have to go to Matt Newsome (though I believe there are one or two other fellows on this board who will make one for you).

Again, these are all in the USA and Canada not in Scotland. I have no idea about Scottish Kiltmakers and what they do or do not offer.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Elsie Struehmeyer doesn't make box pleated kilts, and in fact she refused to have a "how to make a box-pleat kilt" appendix added to the book that she and Barb Tewksbury wrote; "The Art of Kiltmaking".

I don't think that Kathy Lare makes box pleat kilts, though I might be wrong. She does make Military Box Pleat kilts, though. USA Kilts, Freedom Kilts, neither of those advertisers on X Marks the Scot makes box pleat kilts, though I supposed if you requested one and were prepared to pay extra, they might do one up for you. Of course, these are all in the USA and Canada.

R kilts doesn't make box-pleat kilts, though again if you asked, Robert might turn one out for you. Robert MacDonald in Vancouver, CA doesn't make box pleat kilts though he very definitely makes military box pleated kilts. And so on. In fact, if you want a "commercial" kiltmaker to create your box pleat kilt here in North America, you'll have to go to Matt Newsome (though I believe there are one or two other fellows on this board who will make one for you).

Again, these are all in the USA and Canada not in Scotland. I have no idea about Scottish Kiltmakers and what they do or do not offer.

Fact is that there are very few kiltmakers anywhere who list a four yard box pleated kilt as part of their regular offering. There are a handfull that will do it if you ask. A very small number list it on their web site or catalog as an option. I'm the only one I know of who specializes in that style almost exclusively.

Most kiltmakers who are trained in Scotland were trained to make a specific style of kilt in a very specific way, so it's really no surprise to find that they resist or simply have no interest in making kilts differently. No biggie....

[Paul]

Elsie Struehmeyer doesn't make box pleated kilts, and in fact she refused to have a "how to make a box-pleat kilt" appendix added to the book that she and Barb Tewksbury wrote; "The Art of Kiltmaking".

I don't think that Kathy Lare makes box pleat kilts, though I might be wrong. She does make Military Box Pleat kilts, though. USA Kilts, Freedom Kilts, neither of those advertisers on X Marks the Scot makes box pleat kilts, though I supposed if you requested one and were prepared to pay extra, they might do one up for you. Of course, these are all in the USA and Canada.

R kilts doesn't make box-pleat kilts, though again if you asked, Robert might turn one out for you. Robert MacDonald in Vancouver, CA doesn't make box pleat kilts though he very definitely makes military box pleated kilts. And so on. In fact, if you want a "commercial" kiltmaker to create your box pleat kilt here in North America, you'll have to go to Matt Newsome (though I believe there are one or two other fellows on this board who will make one for you).

Again, these are all in the USA and Canada not in Scotland. I have no idea about Scottish Kiltmakers and what they do or do not offer.

I havent seen the sites of most of these people Alan. I was referring to both the retailers and independent kiltmakers in Scotland who I've came accross. I know probably 20 places in Glasgow alone to get a box-pleated kilt and even more in Edinburgh.
Even if a few major retailers did it - this would still show she doesnt know her market... either that or she doesnt want me to buy from any of the businesses who do these kilts.