Glengarry's of old?

[OC Richard]

No, not Hodden Grey. If you want to see the tartan in question, it is depicted in the Osprey Men-at-Arms book, "The Canadian Army at War" by Mike Chappell, plate C1.

Ah, I see. Yes I have that book, and it shows a kilt made of a tartan which has a pale grey background.

I thought you were talking about a kilt made of the same fabric as the WWI tunics and trousers were, a self-coloured (plain) kilt in the colour called "khaki" in the UK but called "olive drab" in the US. I've never seen a kilt like that, though people tell me about them all the time, claiming that Scottish regiments were issued them. In every case the photo turns out to be of the London Scottish.

By the way, the colour plates in those Osprey books vary greatly in quality and reliablity from book to book and I always follow actual photographs rather than those plates. Some Osprey plates are outrageously incorrect.

[macwilkin]

Ah, I see. Yes I have that book, and it shows a kilt made of a tartan which has a pale grey background.

I thought you were talking about a kilt made of the same fabric as the WWI tunics and trousers were, a self-coloured (plain) kilt in the colour called "khaki" in the UK but called "olive drab" in the US. I've never seen a kilt like that, though people tell me about them all the time, claiming that Scottish regiments were issued them. In every case the photo turns out to be of the London Scottish.

By the way, the colour plates in those Osprey books vary greatly in quality and reliablity from book to book and I always follow actual photographs rather than those plates. Some Osprey plates are outrageously incorrect.

Are you preaching to the choir! I am a history instructor who teaches military history (among other subjects), and I would issue the same caveat about Osprey books*. However, in this case, Mike Chappell, the author of said book, is usually pretty reliable in terms of accuracy. Chappell was an ex-RSM with the Wessex Regiment, if memory serves me correctly. I would love to contact him and ask him about his source for that particular kilt. You'll need to take using the term "khaki" up with him, I'm afraid.

T.

*Some of the titles on American Civil War uniforms, for example. I worked for 10 years as a park ranger at a Civil War Battlefield, and they are out there in terms of their depiction of some units.

[OC Richard]

Yes indeed Mark Chappell is fantastic!

I'm an artist by profession and some of the artists that Osprey uses are, let's face it, awful. I don't understand why they use these horrid people when they have Chappell around.

Here's an example in front of me, The Black Watch, illustrated by Michael Youens.

While the illustrations aren't hideous, they're misleading. For example the spats are shown as very tall, which actually were only worn by the Gordon Highlanders.

There's an illustration of the Pipe Major in a red doublet and a sporran with two long tassels.

The OR sporrans seem to have a metal rim to the cantle and metal cones to the tassels, both incorrect.

Then there's The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, illustrated by Michael Roffe (evidently all their illustrators must be named Mike).

These illustrations are scrubby and crude and once again misleading. The illustrator doesn't seem to understand how sporrans are constructed or look and many have odd shapes etc. One of the oddest things is that the tiers of three tassels (the A&SH sporrans have six tassels in two three-tassel tiers) project outward from the centre... the centre tassel points downward but the tassels on each side project at an angle sideways. How could anyone who has actually seen a sporran come up with such a strange idea?

Grrrrrr....

[macwilkin]

Yes indeed Mark Chappell is fantastic!

I'm an artist by profession and some of the artists that Osprey uses are, let's face it, awful. I don't understand why they use these horrid people when they have Chappell around.

Here's an example in front of me, The Black Watch, illustrated by Michael Youens.

While the illustrations aren't hideous, they're misleading. For example the spats are shown as very tall, which actually were only worn by the Gordon Highlanders.

There's an illustration of the Pipe Major in a red doublet and a sporran with two long tassels.

The OR sporrans seem to have a metal rim to the cantle and metal cones to the tassels, both incorrect.

Then there's The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, illustrated by Michael Roffe (evidently all their illustrators must be named Mike).

These illustrations are scrubby and crude and once again misleading. The illustrator doesn't seem to understand how sporrans are constructed or look and many have odd shapes etc. One of the oddest things is that the tiers of three tassels (the A&SH sporrans have six tassels in two three-tassel tiers) project outward from the centre... the centre tassel points downward but the tassels on each side project at an angle sideways. How could anyone who has actually seen a sporran come up with such a strange idea?

Grrrrrr....

Well said. One of the best Osprey MAA books, INMHO, is the one about the Irish Defence Forces since 1922. Bill Younghusband is the artist/illustrator for that particular title, and he is of the same caliber (no pun intended!) as Chappell.

Kevin Lyles, who was the author & illustrator of Vietnam ANZACS in the Elite series is also very good.

T.

[Lachlan09]

This photo of the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders at Scutari in 1854-55, during the Crimean War shows well the height and sit of their diced Glengarry at that time. Interestingly, the 79th and the 93rd were the only two regiments wearing Glengarries at that time. However, within a few years, the 93rd were wearing diced Kilmarnocks again, as seen in an 1862 photo of 93rd soldiers at Ambala, NWF, guarding tribesmen the battalion captured (echos of 21st Century ?). Presumably, the 93rd adopted diced Glengarries again in 1868, when the infantry of the British Army as a whole adopted them.

Does that mean the 79th NYSM wore red/white diced Glengarries before the 93rd re-adopted them in 1868 ?

[Lachlan09]

Did that photo upload ? I don't see it ? I tried to upload the photo from my album (which has a URL ID) using the feature in the post panel.

[macwilkin]

This photo of the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders at Scutari in 1854-55, during the Crimean War shows well the height and sit of their diced Glengarry at that time. Interestingly, the 79th and the 93rd were the only two regiments wearing Glengarries at that time. However, within a few years, the 93rd were wearing diced Kilmarnocks again, as seen in an 1862 photo of 93rd soldiers at Ambala, NWF, guarding tribesmen the battalion captured (echos of 21st Century ?). Presumably, the 93rd adopted diced Glengarries again in 1868, when the infantry of the British Army as a whole adopted them.

Does that mean the 79th NYSM wore red/white diced Glengarries before the 93rd re-adopted them in 1868 ?

The 79th didn't wear the Argyll & Sutherland pattern dicing.

T.

[Lachlan09]

The 79th didn't wear the Argyll & Sutherland pattern dicing.

T.

Whoa cher, I didn't actually say they did. They wore plain blue, like the 42nd and later the HLI.

[79thReproductions]

This photo of the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders at Scutari in 1854-55, during the Crimean War shows well the height and sit of their diced Glengarry at that time. Interestingly, the 79th and the 93rd were the only two regiments wearing Glengarries at that time. However, within a few years, the 93rd were wearing diced Kilmarnocks again, as seen in an 1862 photo of 93rd soldiers at Ambala, NWF, guarding tribesmen the battalion captured (echos of 21st Century ?). Presumably, the 93rd adopted diced Glengarries again in 1868, when the infantry of the British Army as a whole adopted them.

Does that mean the 79th NYSM wore red/white diced Glengarries before the 93rd re-adopted them in 1868 ?

No, the 79th NY adopted those red/white glengarries in the early 1870s.