Origin and Use of "Dress" Tartans

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I, for one, would see dancer's tartans in a different (but related) category than typical dress tartans. Though many dancers wear standard dress tartans, most of the dance tartans so-called are not really clan tartans at all, but fancy variations on clan tartans. Because they have so much white in the design (typically) they are viewed in the same category as dress tartans by many, but I think dance tartans deserve their own category.

If you take a look through the dance tartans provided by mills such as Dalgleish, you'll see a lot of colors you don't ordinarily see in clan tartans. A lot of pastels, colors such as turquoise, pink, aquamarine, etc. And, with one exception that I know of (MacGregor) these dance tartans have no official standing with the clan whatsoever. They are simply fashion tartans, designed for dancing.

Actual dress tartans, on the other hand, are often recognized by the clan (either officially or simply by popular usage). And they tend to stay closer in color to the original clan tartan, though with the added white.

And I would say that the origin of these tartans is the eighteenth century women's arisaid fashion, in which most of the tartans were white or cream based. Because this was originally a ladies' fashion, many consider modern dress tartans to be primarily for women's wear. That's fine. However, there is no objective reason why a man should not choose to wear a tartan simply because there is a lot of white in it. So I say if you are a man and want to wear a white-based tartan, go for it.

In addition to the example of Prince Charles wearing the Dress Stewart, way back in the 1840s R. R. MacIan painted his portrait of the MacPherson wearing a feilidh-mor in the dress tartan for that clan.


Then (like everything else regarding tartan) there are exceptions to the rule; so-called "dress" tartans that have no white in them whatsoever, and are simply called "dress" by analogy because of their light or bright colors. The examples David gave of MacMillan and MacLeod, as well as Barclay are prime examples of this. One that no one has mentioned so far is the Dress Fraser, which is the exact same tartan as the standard red clan tartan. For some reason unknown (at least to me) this tartan has traditionally been referred to both as the "clan" tartan as well as the "dress" tartan, and either apellation is viewed as correct.

[Dixiecat]

Thank you Matt for bringing a little sense into this discussion. I would never deny that these days the idea of 'dress' tartans have gone a little wild. Who ever thought that the Menzies tartan would be recreated as 'Special Dress Cerise Menzies' for instance.

Since men are now considering their own dance as something beneath them (and there have been a few on this forum who have looked down on dancers) the women are taking over and the mills are now catering for them. Those new tartans with such colours as turquoise, cerise, raspberry, fushia, lavender, etc. are being introduced to entice the new dancers. The young and the 'hip' and the female. That's one side of the coin of white background dress tartans. I would consider that as the 'highland dance fashion tartan'. However, there are plenty of other dress tartans that have NOT been designed for this market and are more than suitable for men to wear. For both dancing AND formal dress wear. I was a little upset to have davidlpope lump every white dress tartan into one category and categorically say that every one of them was for women and seemingly belittle not only the tartans, but the people who wear them.

What seems to be forgotten is that most of the modern tartans got their start the very same way that the new dance tartans have. That is, as something pulled out of the air by the mill and called McSomething or other. Some of you wear the XMarks tartan and proudly so, but how is the creation of that tartan any different from the new dance tartans? Both were created for a MARKET. To look down on dance tartans is to belittle most of the tartans that you gentlemen now wear.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

... the women are taking over [Highland dancing] and the mills are now catering for them. Those new tartans with such colours as turquoise, cerise, raspberry, fushia, lavender, etc. are being introduced to entice the new dancers. The young and the 'hip' and the female.

This statement would seem to underscore the sentiment behind the OPs original statement that many "dress tartans" are really intended as womens wear.

[Dixiecat]

This statement would seem to underscore the sentiment behind the OPs original statement that many "dress tartans" are really intended as womens wear.

Unfortunately, you are misinterpreting not only my point, but also the OPs original statement. Which is:

I, personally, stay well clear of categories #2 and #3 above, since I think these tartans are designed for women's clothing. I think category #1 is fine for men's wear, although they are often very vibrant.

What he is saying is that anything with a white background is UNSUITABLE for a man.

What I am trying to point out and I apologise if I have clouded my point with my discussion of the NEW dance tartans, is that NOT all tartans with a white background are intended for womens wear ONLY. I can't believe you BOTH ignored not only HRH Prince Charles wearing Dress Stewart, but also two male dancers of a past era (i.e. long before Charles wore his in that pic) wearing dress tartans.

I certainly think that there are categories of dress tartans, but I think someone with a little more knowledge and less bias should be proposing those categories.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Unfortunately, you are misinterpreting not only my point, but also the OPs original statement. Which is:



What he is saying is that anything with a white background is UNSUITABLE for a man.

What I am trying to point out and I apologise if I have clouded my point with my discussion of the NEW dance tartans, is that NOT all tartans with a white background are intended for womens wear ONLY. I can't believe you BOTH ignored not only HRH Prince Charles wearing Dress Stewart, but also two male dancers of a past era (i.e. long before Charles wore his in that pic) wearing dress tartans.

I certainly think that there are categories of dress tartans, but I think someone with a little more knowledge and less bias should be proposing those categories.

PM sent.

[Lyle1]

From what I've read recently, the dress tartan was simply a variant of the "clan" tartan (as opposed to the chief's tartan) and was worn for dressy and "state occasions." If it was only, or primarily, worn for special occasions, I don't think the lighter colors would present a major soiling problem. I was looking at references from the late 1800's and early 1900's, and I did not see any reference to the dress tartan being a ladies' tartan. I did however, see several references to the head of a clan wearing the dress tartan for a special occasion, and elsewhere of the chief wearing his reserved tartan and the others in the clan wearing the dress tartan. It would be interesting if try to determine where the myth about the dress tartan being for ladies originated. From what I've read, at least 100 years ago, that attitude was not common.

[Phil]

From what I've read recently, the dress tartan was simply a variant of the "clan" tartan (as opposed to the chief's tartan) and was worn for dressy and "state occasions."

Exactly so. Nowadays we tend to just wear the one tartan for all occasions but the well-to-do in bygone years would have a kilt in the "dress" version of their tartan for formal evening occasions. I don't know where all this confusion about women's clothing comes from.

[davidlpope]

Beverly(Dixiecat) has requested that I post an off-line discussion we shared via PM here in this thread and I have agreed. Our hope is that it furthers civil and useful inquiry and discussion on this aspect of tartans. Once again, I apologize if I have offended anyone, in regards to my (now acknowledged as errant) understanding of who wears “Dancers’” tartans.

Since our discussion, I’ve tried to locate some useful historical examples of the use of “dress” tartans. What I’ve come across so far are two series of prints by Robert McIan and Kenneth MacLeay, available for viewing on the STA website at this link:

http://www.tartansauthority-shop.com...og/Prints.html

I acknowledge that these sources may have flaws, but I still think they can be useful as period examples.

Five of the McIan plates depict women: Lamond, MacNicol, Matheson, Sinclair, and Urquhart. Interestingly, of these five, three (Lamond, MacNicol, Sinclair) are depicted wearing a traditional clan tartan. Two (Matheson and Urquhart) are depicted in a light colored, striped?, belted garment that I interpret as an arisaid.

Two of the plates [Macpherson (posted earlier in this thread by Matt Newsome) and Menzies] depict what I interpret as “Dress” tartans. In my mind, these two tartans fit into my “category 1”, since they were not created by adding white to an existing clan tartan. The Dress Macpherson, even though it contains white, is not a modified version of the MacPherson clan tartan, in the way that Dress Stewart, Dress Campbell, or Dress Gordon are modified versions of their respective clan tartans. Likewise, red/white Menzies predates the red/green Menzies according to the Tartan Registry website, so it appears that the red/green version was a modification of the red/white version and not vice versa.

Two of the McLeay plates feature what I recognize as “Dress” tartans- again, Dress MacPherson and Dress Menzies.

So, I’m wondering if anyone here can help in locating the earliest depiction of the wear/use of “category 2” dress tartan (Dress Campbell, Dress Gordon, Dress Stewart, Dress MacDonald, etc.) that’s out there?

Cordially,

David

David:
Thanks for your clarification. I would certainly appreciate if you could post your comments to me onto the thread. I think your categories could be better explained using the reasoning below.

Also, since you didn't seem to be supporting your categories with anything other than your experience and personal feeligs, I went ahead and did some research into the topic.

For category #2 I couldn't find any supporting documentation to suggest that dress tartans were based on arisaids. I could suggest that some of these tartans were actually based more upon formal mens civilian and military dress uniforms. I'm not saying that some of these in #2 wouldn't be based on arisaids, but to assume that they all are is wrong.

The research I did steered clear of the dance 'fashion' tartans and tried to stick with clan or regional tartans, and only one of those tartans I looked at, was specifically introduced for dancers. (Dress Saskatchewan).

If we keep this discussion to the forum, I hope we can further define the categories you proposed.

Beverly

Beverly,

Thanks so much for your kind response. I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

Did you know that the Christina Young tartan is the official dress tartan of Clan Young? Did you know the Dress Stewart is an official clan tartan?

I had put these into my second category since they are derived from arisaids and are recognized (either through general use or by decision of a clan chief) as being connected to a clan or family, rather than originating as dance tartans. Sorry if I was unclear in explaining my rationale.

Did you know that Dress Nova Scotia is an official dress tartan?

I didn't know this, thanks for sharing the info. The NS government website only lists the original NS tartan as official and doesn't make mention of the dress version.

Your personal statement at the end just showed the bias in which you were viewing the types of tartans. The bias prevented you from looking at categories 2 and 3 seriously.

I'm sorry that my analysis appeared as bias and that I seemed to be giving short shrift to categories 2 and 3. My thinking is that from a historical perspective, category 2 tartans were designed as tartans specifically for women's arisaid or other types of female garments, despite their current use as a "formal" tartan for evening events. I tend to be traditional in my views of highland dress, so I, personally, wouldn't wear this type of tartan, personal preference. I'm sure that others do, so to each their own.

Your points regarding category 3 are very well-received. It's clear to me now that these "dance" tartans are worn by both men and women dancers, and ARE NOT designed for WOMEN'S attire since they are designed for DANCER'S attire. Thanks for clearing that up for me. My misconception was based on the fact that having attended approximately 20 highland games in North Carolina, I have never seen an adult male highland dance competitor. I've seen boys and adolescents, but the ones that I remember were wearing conventional clan tartans or category #2 tartans, like the gentlemen in the vintage highland dance photo you referenced (it's hard to say for sure because the photo is black and white, but I think the gentleman on the left is wearing Dress Stewart and the gentleman on the right is wearing Dress Campbell or Dress Gordon.) All the category #3 tartans that I saw were worn by women and girls. All that being said, since I'm not a highland dancer, though, I guess I still can't see myself wearing one of these category #3 tartans, once again, personal preference.

Thanks again for your willingness to discuss.

Cordially,

David

David:

I was upset about your original post, but I've calmed down and I stand by what I have said. You do need to be a little more educated regarding the tartans and the categories that you proposed. For instance, you say that the tartans in #3 have not been recognized by the clans as official setts. Did you know that the Christina Young tartan is the official dress tartan of Clan Young? Did you know the Dress Stewart is an official clan tartan? Did you know that Dress Nova Scotia is an official dress tartan? Those are just off the top of my head. Your personal statement at the end just showed the bias in which you were viewing the types of tartans. The bias prevented you from looking at categories 2 and 3 seriously.
I enjoy discussions such as the one you started and I'd love to keep this to the open forum. We can discuss and should continue to discuss these issues, as clearly as possible without garnering hurt feelings. I know you didn't intend to slight anyone in any way and I very much appreciate your pm.

Thanks for contacting me and I know we can continue a friendly discussion.

/beverly

Dixiecat,

I am sorry to have offended you, I did not mean to do so. Please forgive me. Can you help me understand what I wrote that was so offensive to you?

The point of my original post was that "Dress" tartans, to me, seem to really exist in three distinct categories [for lack of better titles- (1) bright, but probably orginated simply as "clan" tartans, not "dress", (2)those derived from Arisaids, where a clan tartan has white added to it, and (3) Dancer's], as outlined in my original post, and not lumped together.

I do not look down upon male Highland Dancers and I recognize that Highland Dance was originally a male activity designed to enhance martial prowess. I also recognize that a overwhelming majority of competitive dancing is now done by young women.

My final statement about which tartans I personally choose to wear was simply a statement of my personal views. I hope that on issues of personal predilection that we can agree to disagree.

Once again, I am sorry to have offended you. I've enjoyed the discussions I've had on XMarks. I don't want to do something that results in lessening some one else's enjoyment of the same.

Cordially,

David

[davidlpope]

I was a little upset to have davidlpope lump every white dress tartan into one category and categorically say that every one of them was for women and seemingly belittle not only the tartans, but the people who wear them.

PM sent in hopes of an off-line reconciliation.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Just to avoid any confusion, the gentleman pictured above is Captain Ewen MacPherson, the 23rd Chief, and he is wearing (according to McIan who painted the picture) "the grey plaid of Badenach", today known as MacPherson Hunting. This sett is different than the white MacPherson tartan which is reserved for the exclusive use of the chief.