PC equivalents and such

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I was thinking today that some might think a Kilt/Argyle or whatever set up you might have could look rather un-American. (which is fair enough)

If by un-American you meant "foreign looking", I'd have to agree-- if you were somewhere outside of Scotland.

But that got me thinking, what would most suits be considered? I have heard of expensive 'Italian" suits, and it leaves me wondering if the American equivalent to the Formalwear world is that blasted white suit outfit that Harlan Sanders of KFC wears? Is a standard tux basically a French/European thing?

Since you are referring to formal attire the tuxedo is, as McMurdo has already pointed out, quintessentially "American" as it gained wide-spread popularity and social acceptance in the USA decades before it enjoyed the same social status in Britain or mainland Europe. While it can be argued as to who first wore the now ubiquitous "tux"-- the prince or the tobacco king-- what cannot be denied is that it first caught on in the USA. So, at least in terms of "modern" formal attire, the tuxedo is about as American as apple pie.

Does that mean a full Kilt outfit is just as proper as a normal tux...

Certainly it is appropriate in Scotland. However, the further one moves away from Scotland, the greater the danger one will be perceived as wearing a costume if one attends a formal event in a kilt. Now obviously if you are attending a formal Scottish event outside of Scotland then the kilt is absolutely proper, and should be worn. But to any other formal event wearing the kilt is a judgment call, and I for one choose not to wear Highland attire to any but Scottish events.

My reason for this is that I do not wish others to view Highland attire as a costume, something worn merely to call attention to me. Over the course of the last quarter century I have attended many formal functions in Britain and throughout Europe. Outside of Scotland those wearing kilts to these events were usually from North America, or Australia/New Zealand, or the occasional Scot wanting to "make a splash", socially. I particularly remember attending a ball in Austria when it was discovered that the "Scotchman" was actually from Canada. He was introduced to our party and moments after he left a very grand lady turned and asked, "Why is that man dressed like a Scotchman? Isn't he proud of Canada?" Surely something to consider.

(According to Oscar Lenius the tuxedo/dinner jacket was most probably based on the Homburg jacket (from Germany), which was worn after dinner by gentlemen enjoying their cigars. Hence the continental term "smoking" for a tuxedo or (after)dinner jacket. Given that the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) was very much a German and that Griswold Lorillard's vast wealth came from tobacco, I tend to agree with Lenius as to the Teutonic origins of the dinner jacket/tuxedo.)

[slohairt]

If by un-American you meant "foreign looking", I'd have to agree-- if you were somewhere outside of Scotland.


Since you are referring to formal attire the tuxedo is, as McMurdo has already pointed out, quintessentially "American" as it gained wide-spread popularity and social acceptance in the USA decades before it enjoyed the same social status in Britain or mainland Europe. While it can be argued as to who first wore the now ubiquitous "tux"-- the prince or the tobacco king-- what cannot be denied is that it first caught on in the USA. So, at least in terms of "modern" formal attire, the tuxedo is about as American as apple pie.

Certainly it is appropriate in Scotland. However, the further one moves away from Scotland, the greater the danger one will be perceived as wearing a costume if one attends a formal event in a kilt. Now obviously if you are attending a formal Scottish event outside of Scotland then the kilt is absolutely proper, and should be worn. But to any other formal event wearing the kilt is a judgment call, and I for one choose not to wear Highland attire to any but Scottish events.

My reason for this is that I do not wish others to view Highland attire as a costume, something worn merely to call attention to me. Over the course of the last quarter century I have attended many formal functions in Britain and throughout Europe. Outside of Scotland those wearing kilts to these events were usually from North America, or Australia/New Zealand, or the occasional Scot wanting to "make a splash", socially. I particularly remember attending a ball in Austria when it was discovered that the "Scotchman" was actually from Canada. He was introduced to our party and moments after he left a very grand lady turned and asked, "Why is that man dressed like a Scotchman? Isn't he proud of Canada?" Surely something to consider.

(According to Oscar Lenius the tuxedo/dinner jacket was most probably based on the Homburg jacket (from Germany), which was worn after dinner by gentlemen enjoying their cigars. Hence the continental term "smoking" for a tuxedo or (after)dinner jacket. Given that the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) was very much a German and that Griswold Lorillard's vast wealth came from tobacco, I tend to agree with Lenius as to the Teutonic origins of the dinner jacket/tuxedo.)

Some Canadians would say that he is being proud of Canada. Using someone from a Commonwealth Realm like Canada probably isn't the best example for this situation. It brings up the whole 'cultural mosaic-vs.-melting pot" issue that many feel defines a fundamental difference between Canadians and Americans. So, in effect, we consider the traditional dress of a constituent nation of the mother country to be part of our national dress, (or one of our national dresses) if there is such a thing. As the kilt is also still worn by members of our Highland regiments, someone wearing their Highland uniform (with the kilt) to an event would be displaying their pride in Canada.

With all due respect to the grand lady mentioned, her question really only illustrates the general ignorance many around the world have when it comes to dealing with Canadian 'multi-culturalism'.

Back to your regular scheduled programming!

[davidlpope]

Interesting discussion. Thanks for raising the issue. My $.02:

I think this issue really boils down to whether or not a nation has a "national costume" (i.e. costume = distinctive style of clothing, vice "fancy dress").

To my mind the US has no true "national costume", despite the fact that I wear seersucker and white bucks here in the South during summer.

Here's what the first google-hit for "national costume" which deals with the issue says:
http://costumes.lovetoknow.com/Natio...s_of_the_World

"Examples of National Costumes of the World:

Scotland: The knee length pleated kilt is characteristic of Scottish costumes, and is often made of tartan–one clan’s specialized fabric–for even more symbolism. A furry pouch worn around the waist called a sporran and knee socks are other classic parts of the Scottish costume.
Russia: Russian national costumes may be heavily embroidered peasant clothes or the calf-length red wool coat, black boots, and cylindrical dark wool Cossack hat of the Imperial Guard.
Japan: The official costume of Japan is the kimono–a long, heavily patterned silk robe featuring colorful scenes and tied with a wide length of silk fabric called an obi. Sandals, stylized makeup, and an elaborate hairstyle complete the cultural fashion.
Bolivia: Elaborate masks and feather headdresses reflect the pre-Columbian influences in Bolivia’s national costume.
Jamaica: The Caribbean tropics come to life through Jamaica’s national costume with long, flowing, vibrant skirts in stunning colors. Accents include tropical flowers and fruits that are well known in the tiny island nation.
Sweden: Sweden’s national costume is one of the most distinctive, with its white winged hat, white long-sleeved blouse, long skirt with apron, and embroidered vest. Classic craft influences are obvious in this coordinated look.
Africa: African national costumes are different than most other countries’ attire in that they reflect the culture of various native tribes rather than national boundaries. African costumes typically include kente woven cloth in bright, bold colors and geometric patterns that reflect different tribes’ customs.
United States: The U.S. does not have a national costume, but if it adopted one, what might it include? Elaborate hoop skirts may be suitable for Southern states, while Inuit and Eskimo clothes are perfect for Alaska. Hula skirts are appropriate for Hawaii, while chaps and cowboy hats might be found in Texas. The key is that national costumes always reflect the culture, heritage, and individuality of the nations they represent. "

I'm not advocating that this website is authoritative or even completely true, but I do think that it reflects the prevailing general understanding of the issue.

Wearing Scottish National Dress to any event, I think, will be interpreted as professing a tie to Scotland. I understand that many XMarkers divorce the wear of the kilt from Scottish identity or descent, but I don't think this reflects the public attitude about such things. Hence the age old question to the kilted man: "Are you Scottish?"

So, is wearing a kilt un-American? No. Is wearing a kilt going to make people ask you about Scotland? Yes.

Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Some Canadians would say that he is being proud of Canada. Using someone from a Commonwealth Realm like Canada probably isn't the best example for this situation. It brings up the whole 'cultural mosaic-vs.-melting pot" issue that many feel defines a fundamental difference between Canadians and Americans. So, in effect, we consider the traditional dress of a constituent nation of the mother country to be part of our national dress, (or one of our national dresses) if there is such a thing. As the kilt is also still worn by members of our Highland regiments, someone wearing their Highland uniform (with the kilt) to an event would be displaying their pride in Canada.

I don't disagree with what you've said, except I will point out that the "mother country" is generally considered to be the country in which one was born, as opposed to the country from which one's ancestors migrated sometime in the past.

With all due respect to the grand lady mentioned, her question really only illustrates the general ignorance many around the world have when it comes to dealing with Canadian 'multi-culturalism'.

I think her question was anything but ignorant, given that two gentlemen from the British Embassy, who were from Scotland, were in white tie and tails like everyone else-- save the presence of the kilted Canadian.

As far as dealing with Canadian multi-culturalism is concerned, that is really something only Canadians have to deal with. Foreigners have to be aware of it only when in Canada-- just as anyone visiting a foreign country should be aware of (and conform to) the cultural norms of the host country.

I do not wish to imply that one must submerge one's cultural heritage-- far from it. I do think, however, that one has to be mindful of how one presents Highland attire to others, or one runs the risk of reducing it to the level of parody or costume. As I stated earlier, I am perfectly happy wearing the kilt to any Scottish event, anywhere in the world. However, if I am not going to a Scottish event, then I content myself with the fact that my dinner jacket is lined in MacMillan hunting tartan, something that has launched all sorts of interesting conversations about all sorts of things Scottish-- including the kilt!

[isantop]

It brings up the whole 'cultural mosaic-vs.-melting pot" issue that many feel defines a fundamental difference between Canadians and Americans.

Ah, but is it not true that Scotland is to Canada what Ireland is to America? As far as non-english british migration? Listen to the O's and ou's!

The key is that national costumes always reflect the culture, heritage, and individuality of the nations they represent. "

What I get from this site is that the American National Costume would be an Irish Kilt, worn with a dinner jacket, a shoestring tie, Kilt hose, green flashes, and laderhosen? Topped off with a 10 gallon? Possibly a Beret? Ridiculous!

Though I can see it now, in my head...