Ponderings of an ancient Scot.

[RockyR]

[Rocky] is at the sharp end of the kilt world, making and selling kilts, so he knows better than most of us what he can and can't sell, and his confidence on being able to sell "new" tartans, if he could get his hands on them, is very interesting.

My confidence level surprises many, including Kelly. She think's it's a bit too high and likes to humble me on occasion (or at least try).

In all seriousness, it all comes down to knowledge and education about the subject. If I had state tartans to show people (at a 'regular' price), it would open their eyes to brand new possibilities and excite them about new tartans they'd have a connection to.

[Am Bàrd]

Interesting thread....

While I do see a movement to non-traditional and newer tartans, I think that there will always be 'old standbys' - classics that are always around and worn. Perhaps with the rationale that the wearer has a link of some kind, or not. Many folks these days don't feel they need a link to justify wearing a particular tartan - and in reality, who would enforce a tartan's required allegiance? The clan system is no longer functional (though the societies do exist in many cases).

And this draws me into another portion of Jock's post - the term Non-Scots. What precisely makes one a Non-Scot? Surely it isn't determined by blood. We have people on this very forum of pure Scottish pedigree who are looked upon as foreigners simply because they live somewhere else.
Let us also not forget the blood mixed through the ages - Pict, Norman, Irish, Scandinavian - in addition to the 'original' Scotti that people that migrated.

So what is a Non-Scot? Is it geographically bound? If I took a Scot from Scotland and placed them in France, do they then stop being a Scot?

I posit that a Scot can be a person who has a love of Scotland and all things Scottish. A Scot is a person, that if the country put out a call, would send aid in any way they could.

I hope I'm not offending, though I fear I am.
Perhaps we need to institute a new term 'Honourary Scot', or perhaps 'Blood Scot' (if it applies) - for those of us with a connection that we feel deeply.

I do hope I'm not just indulging my North American 'need to belong'.

-John

[NewEnglander]

In all seriousness, it all comes down to knowledge and education about the subject. If I had state tartans to show people (at a 'regular' price), it would open their eyes to brand new possibilities and excite them about new tartans they'd have a connection to.

I know I'd be all about buying a kilt in the tartan of my home state and the states where I lived for any length of time. But until then I'll stick with the tartan of my ancestors (albeit just some of them).

[davedove]

I think before any movement away from clan tartans takes place a general change in mindset must take place.

When most people (those outside this and similar forums) begin to look at the kilt and a tartan they have some general beliefs (right or wrong). They see the kilt as a Scottish garment and believe that to wear the kilt it must be made in one of the traditional clan tartans. They also believe that to wear a particular tartan, they must have a link to the clan it represents (no matter how nebulous). Thus they will try to find the clan tartan for which they can find the closest link.

Now, I have a MacIan tartan because it was my closest link (my grandmother was a McKean). I still wear it occasionally, but I'm finding that I wear other kilts because of closer links - my US Army tartan and my personal Dove tartan. I also have to say that I find myself wearing the dove tartan more than others, because it means more to me.

[billmcc]

In all seriousness, it all comes down to knowledge and education about the subject. If I had state tartans to show people (at a 'regular' price), it would open their eyes to brand new possibilities and excite them about new tartans they'd have a connection to.

I have talked to numerous people who assumed all tartans were clan tartans. Most people have never heard of district tartans. Many stated they would be very interested in tartans with a close personal connection, such as a state or organizational tartan.

[Howard Clark]

If I could get the Iowa tartan at stock prices in heavy weight wool, I'd be on it in an instant.

I have a variety of tartans, and only tenuous hereditary connection to any of them. Two are Robert Noble MoD surplus materials from the regiments being re-organized. I like the tartans better than solid colours or tweeds at this point, though I do also have kilts made from both of those as well.

[Tobus]

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet (if it has and I missed it, I apologize)...

The "clan tartans", as I understand it, weren't really clan tartans until after the clan system was pretty much destroyed. Before that, people wore whatever tartan they happened to like.

Why would the future be any different? Why should it?

The entire discussion has revolved around the concept that clan tartans are (or should be) kept for use by Scots who are affiliated with a particular clan. But it wasn't that way to begin with, and at this point I really don't see it ever going back. That particular genie is long since out of the bottle. Assigning significance to a tartan is a relatively new (post-clan-heyday) concept.

If we're reaching into the future, though, to project what we'd like to see, I would very much like to see the kilt become more commonplace in society with the new tartans gaining widespread recognition for their significance. In 30 years, let's say, I'd like to be visiting another US State wearing a Texas tartan kilt and have people know that I'm from Texas. Will that happen? Probably not. But one can dream.

Another thing Jock Scot mentioned is the question of why anyone would have more than one tartan. If we are to go back, again, to history where all tartans were fashion tartans (i.e. people wore what they liked), the same question could be asked of anything you wear. Why have more than one color shirt? Why have more than one color pair of trousers? Why have more than one color pair of shoes? The answer should be obvious. People who aren't wearing tartan as part of a uniform will want diversity in their wardrobe.

[seanachie]

On another forum, a gentleman has written up his new adventure www.tartans4africa.co.za . He is located in South Africa and weaves African tartans. I have been intrigued with his website and the story he posted. Enough such that I sent him a PM to better understand these new African tartans and whether they have been officially recognized. James is originally from the UK and was a piper in the Household Guard and played at several big events. I have not gotten a reply yet on my questions so I can't share his response. I know he has a picture of one of the company directors with Desmond Tutu. It would be interesting to see kilts not only transcend ethnicity but race as well.

[Macman]

Jock, you have started an interesting thread. I think Matt and Sir William have made well the point; we of Scottish ancestry especially with a surname with a clan tartan will strongly want to wear a kilt with that tartan. It will be our first and most favored.

My feelings are similar to Mael Coluim's. My first kilts were in my surname's clan tartans. When I wanted to get more kilts (thanks to being on XMTS), I went to the Maple Leaf and my provincial tartan. Still, my tie to my clan feels stronger. How my progeny will choose, I don't know; I'll be happy if they at least wear the kilt!

[OC Richard]

In 30 years, let's say, I'd like to be visiting another US State wearing a Texas tartan kilt and have people know that I'm from Texas.

It's happening already, at least in the Pipe Band world, to some extent.

When I went to the Stone Mountain Highland Games in Atlanta I saw local bands wearing the Georgia tartan. I'd not seen it before, but now if I see a band wearing that tartan I'll suspect they're from Georgia.

A friend plays in the Kentucky United Pipes and Drums which wears the Kentucky tartan.

A band visited California a few years ago wearing the British Columbia tartan and sure enough they were from BC.

A new band started up here a couple years ago and decided to go with the California tartan.

So anyhow in North America it wouldn't be difficult to round up a number of bands all of which wear their state or provincial tartans.

Many other pipe bands, it's true, still have clan connexions and here locally we have the Nicholson Pipe Band which wears Nicholson tartan and has some connexion with the clan.

Many other bands choose tartans because they fancy them and for no other reason... for them it doesn't matter at all what a tartan is called, only what it looks like.