New Eagle Scout

[rocscotjoe]

I got my Eagle in 1974. The uniforming issues were just as hot then as now. Keeping in mind that we were just coming off the VietNam conflict, and many of our leaders were WW2 types, we had some who would have just as soon had us appear paramilitary.

I am a Wood Badger (used to be an Eagle) 2000, and plan to apply to Clan MacLaren as an honorary WB member, should I want to wear the MacLaren tartan.

As a Scouter (ASM and 2001 Jamboree SM) I struggle with the rigidity of the uniforming guidelines, especially when dealing with young men of limited means and the expense of uniforms. If anyone wants to suggest uniform exchanges, I think they are fine, but also remember how cruel young people can be when I am observed wearing your "hand-me-downs".

To Muffin:

Congrats to you and you son! It is very special, and will be more so in time. My son is an Eagle class of '03, and I think it has only been in the last few years that he has recognized how special an achievement it is.

YiS

Rocscotjoe

[Mike_Oettle]

Hi, Muffinman, and hearty congratulations to your son on making Eagle Scout.
During the two years I was a Scout, South Africa went from being a British dominion to a republic outside the Commonwealth, so we also saw a transition from Queen’s Scouts to Springbok Scouts.
My patrol leader was a Queen’s Scout – one of the last in South Africa.
The BSA uniform rules do strike me as odd (okay, I know this is a red-button issue, but I don’t plan on making a major issue of it).
In my day all Scouts wore short pants (military-style khaki). Rovers could be seen in trousers, and some Scoutmasters wore them. But our Scoutmaster wore shorts, as did the Scoutmaster next door (two troops shared a hall, which was divided by a partition).
But the trousers were always khaki, even if (like the neighour troop) the shirt they wore was green. Most of the Scouts in Cape Town wore khaki shirts.
One troop (from a Presbyterian church) had a tartan element in their scarves, but I cannot recall whether the scarves themselves were tartan, or if the scarves had a patch of tartan on the triangle.
While I do not recall seeing a kilted Scout in the flesh, we were well aware that Scottish Scouts wore kilts.
I have noticed trends in Scouting in various countries towards putting the boys (and nowadays the girls, too) in trousers. But grey trousers strike me as being extremely odd with the Scout uniform.
Perhaps that is because I am used to having worn (in the distant past), and seeing boys wearing, grey trousers as part of school uniform, by contrast with Scout uniform.
The only difference (in this respect) between the schools I knew in Cape Town and those in the Eastern Cape was that in Cape Town, boys in Std 6 and 7 (Grade 8 and 9) wore shorts, while only the senior boys wore long pants, whereas in the Eastern Cape younger boys were also expected to wear longs.
But to this day, grey shorts are the uniform in primary schools (Grade 1 to 7), not trousers.
The point of this ramble is that, at least in South Africa, grey pants are not Scout uniform.
As for kilts, I don’t even know Scout uniform rules in South Africa any more, but I would recommend wearing a kilt for hiking.
Someone (on this thread or another) warned about ticks and other pests that might infest one if you walked through brush, but it is worth mentioning that many of these little pests prefer to infest clothing like trousers, and are less fond of bare legs (and a kilted man’s legs are much barer than a man in trousers).

Obviously Muffinman’s son would need permission to wear a kilt to his court of honour, but not simply to possess one. I would say go for it – get the kilt, young man!
Whether that kilt should be McLaren is also something I will not pronounce on, but possibly Muffinman junior does have his Wood Badge already.
Regards,
Mike

[G_W]

From one Eagle to another, congrats!

As to the kilt, I thought I read somewhere, maybe even this forum, that the Laird MacLaren gave permission to all scouts to wear his tartan in the 20s. I could be wrong. But even if I am, it's not a restricted tartan, and as I've seen a few times around here, you can wear what you like really.

As to the scout uniform, it looks incredibly nice with the kilt. One of the boys in a troop in our district attended the district dinner wearing it. Not one person said anything negative about it. But it isn't regulation, so I would talk to the current Scoutmaster about it. If there are no uniform lawyers there, it should be ok. If you really feel queasy about it, write to the clan and see if it's acceptable.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I was 17 when I earned Eagle. It's a personal pet peeve of mine when I see 13, 14 year old Eagles who seem to breeze through the ranks. An Eagle takes a bit of maturity. Also I find requirements are getting watered down a bit and also service project are starting to lack. I mean really, how many choose to build a small trail or benches every year.

In many ways it seems Scouting has succumbed to the "every child a winner" nonsense that has schools giving passing grades to those who do not deserve, make that earn, them. I would be very surprised if the current flock of "eaglets" could rise to the challenges required of Eagle Scouts in 1965...

As far as my views on scouts wearing the kilt is concerned, the search engine is your friend...

[Matty Ross]

I might agree making eagle is easier than it was in 1965. But I will also say boys are VERY different than boys of my generation. I think if we went back to the 1965 requirements and programing it is possible very few boys would earn the award and it would become insignificant and possibly considered unobtainable. Advancement is one of the 8 methods of modern Scouting We as leaders provide advancement opportunities as part of our regular program. If a boy takes advantage of these opportunities for a long enough period of time and he receives sufficient encouragement, he will most likely earn his Eagle Scout. I think back in the 60’s when I was a boy MOST of the work was left up to the boy to do on his own. So I agree an Eagle Scout from the 60’s was a major accomplishment. But again boys are different now. Just getting boys to take an interest in Scouting is very difficult and in many cases impossible. So a watered down Scouting program that still teaches Character, Morality and Citizenship and rewards boys for participating is far better than just leaving him at home with his TV and Nintendo.
Just my .02 worth

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

As a Scouter (ASM and 2001 Jamboree SM) I struggle with the rigidity of the uniforming guidelines, especially when dealing with young men of limited means and the expense of uniforms. If anyone wants to suggest uniform exchanges, I think they are fine, but also remember how cruel young people can be when I am observed wearing your "hand-me-downs".

Here's how it was handled in Troop 214 back in the late 50's and early 60's. My troop had a mix of rich kids, poor kids, black kids, white kids. Our meeting uniform was the scout "overseas" cap, a red troop neckerchief, a scout uniform shirt, and a pair of jeans. Outdoors we added a red baseball cap, and if it was cold, a red watch cap. I doubt the whole uniform-- jeans included-- cost more than about twelve bucks in 1959.

Every boy who joined our troop-- filthy rich or dirt poor-- was given a hand-me-down shirt, and was told that he was expected to live up to the achievements of the other scouts who had worn that shirt. It was an honour to wear that shirt, to follow in the footsteps of all those scouts who had previously worn it. And no scout was allowed to wear a new shirt until he earned the privilege. When a boy made First Class Scout he was presented with a new shirt by the Troop with his FCS badge sewn on the pocket. I can not tell you how proud I was of my new shirt, because I had earned it.

Yes, kids can be cruel about hand-me-down clothes. But, with a little perspective, they can also be motivated to earn their shirt.

[Cygnus]

I might agree making eagle is easier than it was in 1965. But I will also say boys are VERY different than boys of my generation.
...

I don't think it's the boys that are different so much as the parents, culture, and scout masters that are different.

I think parents and leaders have succumbed to the "every child a winner" syndrome that MoR mentioned, and they have the expectation that by simply attending Boy Scout meeting regularly their child will become an Eagle Scout. Leaders have a difficult time telling boys that they won't sign something off when everyone else has met the requirement and don't want to deal with angry parents who are convinced that Junior can do no wrong.

Boys today are also bombarded with media and time-wasting activities that didn't exist 45 years ago and Scouting has to compete with all of those.

As a scoutmaster, I make sure the boys in the troop really know what they're doing before they advance. Both the boys and their parents think I'm too hard nosed - whenever either of them expresses frustration with this, I simply reply that somebody's life may depend on the boy learning the skills that we're teaching and it could be mine or the parent's.

That is not to say that I don't think there is a place for boys with special needs in scouting. Our troop has recently been joined by a boy with Down Syndrome who struggles to meet even the specially modified requirements for advancement. It has been great for the other boys to learn to help this new scout and, while he may not be able to complete all of the standard requirements, I would love to see him attain the rank of Eagle Scout some day.

[macwilkin]

I don't think it's the boys that are different so much as the parents, culture, and scout masters that are different.

I think parents and leaders have succumbed to the "every child a winner" syndrome that MoR mentioned, and they have the expectation that by simply attending Boy Scout meeting regularly their child will become an Eagle Scout. Leaders have a difficult time telling boys that they won't sign something off when everyone else has met the requirement and don't want to deal with angry parents who are convinced that Junior can do no wrong.

Boys today are also bombarded with media and time-wasting activities that didn't exist 45 years ago and Scouting has to compete with all of those.

As a scoutmaster, I make sure the boys in the troop really know what they're doing before they advance. Both the boys and their parents think I'm too hard nosed - whenever either of them expresses frustration with this, I simply reply that somebody's life may depend on the boy learning the skills that we're teaching and it could be mine or the parent's.

That is not to say that I don't think there is a place for boys with special needs in scouting. Our troop has recently been joined by a boy with Down Syndrome who struggles to meet even the specially modified requirements for advancement. It has been great for the other boys to learn to help this new scout and, while he may not be able to complete all of the standard requirements, I would love to see him attain the rank of Eagle Scout some day.

I hope someday my son has a scoutmaster with these beliefs.

Well said!

T.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I don't think it's the boys that are different so much as the parents, culture, and scout masters that are different.

I think parents and leaders have succumbed to the "every child a winner" syndrome that MoR mentioned, and they have the expectation that by simply attending Boy Scout meeting regularly their child will become an Eagle Scout. Leaders have a difficult time telling boys that they won't sign something off when everyone else has met the requirement and don't want to deal with angry parents who are convinced that Junior can do no wrong.

Boys today are also bombarded with media and time-wasting activities that didn't exist 45 years ago and Scouting has to compete with all of those.

As a scoutmaster, I make sure the boys in the troop really know what they're doing before they advance. Both the boys and their parents think I'm too hard nosed - whenever either of them expresses frustration with this, I simply reply that somebody's life may depend on the boy learning the skills that we're teaching and it could be mine or the parent's.

That is not to say that I don't think there is a place for boys with special needs in scouting. Our troop has recently been joined by a boy with Down Syndrome who struggles to meet even the specially modified requirements for advancement. It has been great for the other boys to learn to help this new scout and, while he may not be able to complete all of the standard requirements, I would love to see him attain the rank of Eagle Scout some day.

Scouting needs more men like Cygnus if it is to live up to its motto, "Scouting builds better men."

[Woodsman]

My Congratulations to your son.

I have been involved with Scouting for 35 years and have pinned 25 Eagles. Some were 14 some were 18. Some wore blue jeans, some wore perfect uniform. IMHO the purpose of scouting is to have fun. Along the way we have some great experiences and learn a few things too. I wear kilts at scouting functions frequently. I think it’s fun to wear a kilt. As far as the McLaren tartan goes I am a 3 time Wood Badger The Scottish and Canadian boys wear McLaren so I would say go for it and don’t forget to have fun

As a Scoutmaster and Woodbadger (Buffalos are the best by the way) I have to agree with you Matty -the purpose of Scouting is to learn while having fun. Also the newly ordained Eagle Scouts do have a say in where, when and how they get recognized for their ceremony. I too say if he wants to wear the kilt then he should. We have to make little waves once in a while.

P.S. I just checked. I had the honor of pinning 20 Eagles including my son!