Heraldic Beasts?

[Mark E.]

My input on this one...My family's crest has a boar with an arrow thru it, a shield with St. Andrew's cross, and in the spaces around the cross bars, hunting horns. Rumor has it the family was known as hunters, and the boar was symbolic of a kill that happened on a hunting outing where one of my folk kept a higher class individual from being gored. Dragons, griffons, lions, unicorns and the like seem to be part of the upper classes...One must look to the nature of the animal as well, to gauge it's symbolic attributes.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

My input on this one...My family's crest has a boar with an arrow thru it, a shield with St. Andrew's cross, and in the spaces around the cross bars, hunting horns.

Perhaps you could put a name to these arms and tell us how you came by them?

I only ask because the crest you've mentioned as belonging to your family-- and as seen in your avatar-- is most commonly associated (in Ireland) with the Kelley family, while the name "Patrick" is most commonly associated (in Scotland) with the clan Lamont.

[Mark E.]

Perhaps you could put a name to these arms and tell us how you came by them?

I only ask because the crest you've mentioned as belonging to your family-- and as seen in your avatar-- is most commonly associated (in Ireland) with the Kelley family, while the name "Patrick" is most commonly associated (in Scotland) with the clan Lamont.

It's the Pogue (otherwise known as Pollock). A lesser group, granted, and mainly associated with the Maxwells. My grandmother was a Pogue, her father, grandfather, and great grandfather, and so on, were Pogues. We came from North Ireland (where there is a village named Eskra, believe it or not), and before that, Scotland, near Renfrew. Before the Clearances, our name was written into records as ghillies/huntsmen to the Maxwells. We were at the Great Hunt of Aboyne, and stood with James in the '15. Before that, varied members of note have stood with Mary, Queen of Scots (lost), and later, with Queen Anne (one fellow got a knighthood from that one).

Mark

[Mike_Oettle]

MacMillan of Rathdown’s categorisation of the College of Arms as a private institution is not entirely correct, since its officers are held to be part of the royal household.
To my knowledge the Spanish Cronistas were not regarded as belonging to the royal household, but I could be wrong on that point.
While the Lord Lyon is a judge within the Scottish judicial system and is paid out of the public purse, the other heralds of Lyon Court subsist on their fees and on their private means.
In this respect they are not too different from the officers of the College of Arms.
Regards,
Mike

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

MacMillan of Rathdown’s categorisation of the College of Arms as a private institution is not entirely correct, since its officers are held to be part of the royal household.

Actually they are functionaries in the office of the Earl Marshal His Grance the Duke of Norfolk. The charter of their creation makes it quite clear that they are a private body.

To my knowledge the Spanish Cronistas were not regarded as belonging to the royal household, but I could be wrong on that point.

The last Cronista (don Vicente de Cardenas) was appointed for life by Franco, and for administrative purposes his function came under the authority of the Ministry of Justice. It is my understanding that the Marquis de la Floresta has, from time to time, functioned as the personal herald of His Majesty the King of Spain.

While the Lord Lyon is a judge within the Scottish judicial system and is paid out of the public purse, the other heralds of Lyon Court subsist on their fees and on their private means.
In this respect they are not too different from the officers of the College of Arms.

The major difference between the Lyon Court and the College of Arms, which is part of the Duke of Norfolk's household, is that the college grants "without the objection of the Sovereign" whereas the Lyon grants "with the authority of the Sovereign." Thus the Lyon is uniquely both an officer of State as well as the Crown. Likewise, unlike Lyon or the now defunct office of Ulster-- both of whom held their appointments directly from the Sovereign-- appointments to the college are at the discretion of the Duke of Norfolk. So, technically speaking, when the English heralds are present at a State function, they are there by command of the Earl Marshal. Lyon is present at the command of the Queen.

The other major difference is that fees collected by the Lyon go directly to the government, while fees collected by the college go directly to... the heralds themselves.

Now in the purely practical sense, there is very little difference between the heraldic function of the Lyon and the College of Arms. The major difference being that grants from the Lyon enjoy the full force of the law, while those of the College do not.