Fly Plaid - Which Shoulder??

[Downunder Kilt]

I'm not one to criticize somebody that chooses to wear a fly plaid; they are traditional Highland dress, after all.

From reading articles on the web i would suggest that the fly plaid is a rather modern invention, not much older than 30 years. I would therefore be hesitant in calling it tradtional. I conceed that the belted plaid and shepherds plaid are traditional as photos of such can be found going back 50years plus.

I personally don't like fly plaids, others do, but I don't think we can really refer to them as tradtional.

[Cygnus]

From reading articles on the web i would suggest that the fly plaid is a rather modern invention, not much older than 30 years. I would therefore be hesitant in calling it tradtional. I conceed that the belted plaid and shepherds plaid are traditional as photos of such can be found going back 50years plus.

I personally don't like fly plaids, others do, but I don't think we can really refer to them as tradtional.

The illustrations from the 1960 edition of "Scottish Tartans and Highland Dress" all show fly plaids (though I admit the author refers exclusively to half-belted plaids). The fact that the illustrator had knowledge of fly plaids as early as 1960 means that this form of plaid is at least 50 years old.

Now, I know many people dislike the MacLeay portraits, but take a look at the fellow in the middle of this one:


He appears to be wearing a fly plaid prior to 1870.

If that's not enough to say they're "traditional", I don't know what is.

[Downunder Kilt]

I shall not go into the merits of MacLeay's portraits and what was and wasn't artistic licence and the fact that we can't see the back of the gentleman that you have cited neither proves or disproves the facts. I have found 50 photos of gents wearing highland plaids in the late 19th century and early 20th and 2 have, what could be referred to as, fly plaids. As for your interpretation of a described half belted plaid as a fly plaid, I'll leave those jumps in description to you. I refer you to Matt Newsomes New Highland House site for excellent description and photos of a half belted plaid

[figheadair]

I'm surprised that no-one has made the connection with the 'rule' for wearing a sgian dubh.

The rule to which I refer is of course an invention based on standardised military rules that exist to ensure uniformity. I don't wear either sgian dubh or fly plaid but when I used to wear the former I wore it on my left b because I'm left handed.

Fly plaids are of course a pseudo relic of the upper portion of a belted plaid which was generally fastened to the left shoulder in order to leave the sword arm unencumbered. The left-handed swordsman would naturally have fastened his plaid to his right shoulder.

Bottom line, unless one is in the military or some other group that insists on standardisation then there is no hard and fast rule so if one wishes to wear either a sgian dubh or fly plaid then where t on the side that is most practice.

[cavscout]

I'm surprised that no-one has made the connection with the 'rule' for wearing a sgian dubh.

The rule to which I refer is of course an invention based on standardised military rules that exist to ensure uniformity. I don't wear either sgian dubh or fly plaid but when I used to wear the former I wore it on my left b because I'm left handed.

Fly plaids are of course a pseudo relic of the upper portion of a belted plaid which was generally fastened to the left shoulder in order to leave the sword arm unencumbered. The left-handed swordsman would naturally have fastened his plaid to his right shoulder.

Bottom line, unless one is in the military or some other group that insists on standardisation then there is no hard and fast rule so if one wishes to wear either a sgian dubh or fly plaid then where t on the side that is most practice.

Perfect response. Form follows function is how I determine what I wear and how I wear it. I like my garment functional first and attractive a close second.

[Cygnus]

I'm surprised that no-one has made the connection with the 'rule' for wearing a sgian dubh.

The rule to which I refer is of course an invention based on standardised military rules that exist to ensure uniformity. I don't wear either sgian dubh or fly plaid but when I used to wear the former I wore it on my left b because I'm left handed.

Fly plaids are of course a pseudo relic of the upper portion of a belted plaid which was generally fastened to the left shoulder in order to leave the sword arm unencumbered. The left-handed swordsman would naturally have fastened his plaid to his right shoulder.

Bottom line, unless one is in the military or some other group that insists on standardisation then there is no hard and fast rule so if one wishes to wear either a sgian dubh or fly plaid then where t on the side that is most practice.

This actually got me thinking about something else (that is a bit off-topic).

Was there a stigma against being left handed in the Scottish Highlands in the same way there was in other Western countries? We've all heard stories of children having their left arm tied down to force right-handedness, and I wonder if this was the practice in Scotland as well.

I only ask because I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a highlander with his plaid on the right shoulder or his sgian dubh in his left sock, though it would make sense to have a few such pictures.

[SlackerDrummer]

You may not be able to see his back, but if you look closely at his left side (just above the hose on his left foot), you can see the fringe from the plaid hanging down. Unless the fellow on the right has a bit of fringed tartan tucked into the back of his kilt, the only explanation for that is that the chap in the middle is wearing what is essentially a fly plaid.

I highly doubt that MacLeay would have added that had the plaid been belted, though I suppose it's a possibility.

Good catch, I noticed that too. I right-click saved the pic to my screen so I could enlarge it.

If you follow down the edges of the kilts on the left hand side of the middle Gent, and right hand side of the right hand Gent, you'll see that fringed corner is behind the middle Gent.

Taking the angle of view into account, if the right side Gent has something with fringe hanging from his right side, it somehow is hanging out far enough to be slightly behind the middle Gent,... who is clearly standing further back in the picture than the right hand Gent.

Based on the location of the fringe, and no evidance of it being belted, I think it safe to say that the middle Gent is wearing what today would be called a Fly Plaid.

Having worn a belted plaid as a drummer in a pipe band that wore #1 kit, I can assure you that a belted plaid can hang down that far and that they are in fact fringed all around. The drummer on the right in the image below is NOT wearing a fly plaid and I suspect the gent in the painting is not either.

[Fitzy]

Having worn a belted plaid as a drummer in a pipe band that wore #1 kit, I can assure you that a belted plaid can hang down that far and that they are in fact fringed all around. The drummer on the right in the image below is NOT wearing a fly plaid and I suspect the gent in the painting is not either.

Another good point SD.

But it leads me to ask, does what a Pipe Band (a relativly "modern convention" I'm told) member wear as part of a uniform necessarily prove, or disprove, what, or how, someone wore an item of clothing long before there ever were such things as Pipe Bands ?

In other words, the plastic Weather King drum heads I used on my drums over 40 years ago doesn't prove that there were no hide drum heads 100 years ago.

And as Cygnus shows in his last, there is no evidance of the plaid tuned up, or attached at the waist under the jacket, as shown with Matt's pictures of he wearing an older style belted plaid in the "Day/Laid's Plaid" thread here.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-plaid-59143/

So based just on the visable evidence in Cygnus's last picture there's none to support that plaid is actually belted, but there is evidance that can be taken that it was not belted, therefore looking more like a fly plaid.

Paul.

[robbiethepiper]

This actually got me thinking about something else (that is a bit off-topic).

Was there a stigma against being left handed in the Scottish Highlands in the same way there was in other Western countries? We've all heard stories of children having their left arm tied down to force right-handedness, and I wonder if this was the practice in Scotland as well.

I only ask because I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a highlander with his plaid on the right shoulder or his sgian dubh in his left sock, though it would make sense to have a few such pictures.

Well, my ancestors (Kerr) were famously left- handed and altered their world to suit them. They changed doorways and even had spiral stairs going the other way to give advantage to left-handed swordsmen. As to stigma, it would be a brave or foolish man to let it be known he thought himself superior to a Reiver clan.....

[Cygnus]

How about this one, then?



While I admit that it could be a long drummer's plaid, it sure looks a lot like the modern fly plaid to me. The way that it seems to be hanging looks to me like it's not attached anywhere but the shoulder.

Even if these are belted plaids, though, after more than 50 years of use, I think the fly plaid may be close to becoming traditional if it isn't already. That may be sad news for many on this forum, but if enough people use something long enough...

Well, my ancestors (Kerr) were famously left- handed and altered their world to suit them. They changed doorways and even had spiral stairs going the other way to give advantage to left-handed swordsmen. As to stigma, it would be a brave or foolish man to let it be known he thought himself superior to a Reiver clan.....

That is interesting - I wonder when the stigma against left-handed people became widespread (and if it ever did amongst the Kerrs).