formal evening dress: vest or no?

[CMcG]

Why not five button vest with jabot?
I just like the jabot. And I don't know about the cravat.

<snip>

I don't see why you couldn't wear a 5 button vest with jabot but I'm no expert... I don't think I've seen that look with a PC though... do you have any pictures?

[piperdbh]

I don't see why you couldn't wear a 5 button vest with jabot but I'm no expert... I don't think I've seen that look with a PC though... do you have any pictures?

Lace jabot and cuffs is for white-tie events, which are more "formal" than black-tie.
For the PC, I think the low-cut, 3-button waistcoat with bow tie is better. Here's a shot of yours truly:

[CMcG]

<snip>
The design and cut of a Prince Charlie is intended to be worn with a three button waistcoat, which comes up to the bottom of the lapel. For a five button waistcoat to work with the design of the garment, the lapels would have to be much, much, shorter.

I think you should wear a PC with a bowtie and either a waistbelt OR a 3-button waistcoat. The belt looks better, to me, on men that are short and stocky, the waistcoat better on taller men. I think the broad expanse of white shirtfront on a taller man is prone to looking untidy.
<snip>

Thanks gentlemen, that's just the sort of explanations I was looking for. If it's a question of physique, davidlpope's advice could be very helpful. I however, am neither particularly tall nor particularly stocky, so perhaps either a waistbelt OR a 3-button waistcoat might just work for me.

I appreciate the waistbelt, no vest, black-tie pics from JSFMACLJR as that appeals to me most. I'm not clear though, if MoR seems to be suggesting that the PC should always be worn with a 3 button vest or if it was more that WHEN a vest is worn with a PC it should be 3 button. The bit about the long lapels, short vest makes visual sense to me.

Also, please don't think me a troll; I included the "5 button vest with cravat look" as reference, not because I was planning on wearing it. I like a good disambiguation and this thread is supposed to be about vest options, so it's great that we can get that one out of the way quickly!

[Bugbear]

Um, I'm confused all over again, so never mind what I brought up on the jabot.

[Bigkahuna]

What about a 4th option that I didn't see mentioned. The "Cummerbund" in either black or tartan looks very nice with a PC.

[CMcG]

What about a 4th option that I didn't see mentioned. The "Cummerbun" in either black or tartan looks very nice with a PC.

Pictures? I have seen it done but not sure how traditional it is. I think I would prefer a belt but maybe it could be option 5... I believe JSFMACLJR claimed no belt, no vest as option 4

Here's Panache with his cummerbund:

[Jock Scot]

Why not five button vest with jabot?
I just like the jabot. And I don't know about the cravat.

I suppose as long as there is some kind of waist cover it would be ok from what I have read on black tie atire.

Ted the Jabot is really another step up the formal scale, in the white tie league, and is normally worn with a "Montrose", or perhaps the versitile "Sheriffmuir". I don't think that wearing a jabot with a PC would be quite right.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

My own opinions.

If you are discussing a Prince Charlie jacket specifically, as these typically are sold as a unit with a 3-button waistcoat, that is the first recommendation. Though many of the pictures posted show a PC worn with a belt and waistplate (sans vest), I personally don't think this looks as nice. I have seen the PC worn with a black cummerbund and I think this looks fine.

I'll throw my hat in with those who do not favor the 5-button waistcoat with the PC. If you want to wear it, fine, but realize that it is a modern, somewhat "trendy" look, and not the classic style. I say if you want to wear a 5-button waistcoat, get an Argyle jacket to wear with it.

As for the Sherrifmuir doublet, it was interesting to me to see a few pictures of this style posted here with no waistcoat. One almost always seen this style worn with a waistcoat of some type (either solid or tartan), and most often a high 5-button waistcoat.

I am personally a fan of waistcoats. I think they can be slimming and really add a lot to an outfit.

[JSFMACLJR]

I almost always wear a waistcoat with evening dress, and on those few occasions when I don't, I do not wear a belt. I dislike belts with the kilt; a personal thing. As I have shown, though, I am not alone in the sans waistcoat, sans belt look. Here is my chief, Sir Lachlan Maclean of Duart showing that it can be done. In hot climes ( and this pic was taken in Atlanta! ) it makes sense.



While Jock Scot and I seldom--if ever disagree--it is worth pointing out that jabots were not always worn solely at white tie events. In the Western Isles one did/does see them worn more often than in other parts of the world even at black tie events. Why wear "English" neckwear when a beautiful jabot can be worn instead? Still, though, Jock is pretty much spot on, in that nowadays jabots tend to be worn for white tie events only...but there is "wiggle room"!

Now, jabots can be worn quite effectively with PC coatees, if the latter are tailored correctly! In a well-made doublet, the waist is higher, as the top of the kilt is higher. If this is done, then there won't be much shirt exposed and jabots look splendid! Here is a picture (from an old catalogue albeit) to illustrate this look:



I'm afraid I do not agree that a cummerbund is suitable with the kilt; in fact I think it looks downright silly!

[Jock Scot]

I don't think we differ by much Sandy. Interesting picture there too, with a jabot and a three(?) buttoned waistcoat, I have never seen that before. You are quite right that for effective wearing of the jabot and the PC, almost perfect tailoring is required both with the kilt and the PC. Sadly that is a rare event.