KIlt Color Palettes, The STA, the SRT, and Wilsons of Bannokburn

[figheadair]

Is that something Lochcarron could do? I see there's another participant in this thread (Adrian) who is doing custom weaves, some of them using yarns he apparently obtained from DC Dalgliesh. Another option would be to have whomever weaves it provide the cloth to Barb Tewksbury, but I don't think she makes trews.

Yes they could. Here is a better image of a Wilsons' specimen with the white line. In this case the white is silk which adds an extra zing.



[/QUOTE]And a follow-up to the relationship between the STA and the SRT: how would/will the two organizations interact, or is that a work in progress better left to incubate in private?[/QUOTE]

I don't understand the question. Could you clarify what you mean?

[jsrnephdoc]

If there is interest in reproducing some of the alternative more historic color palettes in a small volume then perhaps a group of interested people and kiltmakers could collaborate. But please don't rely on what you see on an Internet device for color reproduction, we need to see it. I can use the dyehouse that did the work for D C Dalgleish and have another dyehouse behind the weaving contractor.

Many thanks for your detailed responses. I hope you'll address a few additional questions and comments triggered by them.

First, Professor Barbara Tewskbury has intimated to me that one of the real tragedies of the loss of DC Dalgliesh is that they were able to do small custom weaves (but perhaps that willingness was a bad business model and one contributor to their disappearance).

Second, I'm still a relative "newbie" here, but I've read enough to know that very little confidence should be attached to small .jpg "samples" of tartan, but how would one "see it" for Robertson White line or anything else that's not been woven for more than a century?

Not too long ago I watched a YouTube video that I THINK was done by Lochcarron, in which they showed a tartan designer at work with a customer wanting a custom tartan. They offered him more than a half dozen options based on the "symbolism" he wanted encoded in his tartan (I'm aware that that entire concept is an infant or adolescent in tartan history), and in-house they showed him printouts from their tartan designer software. As I mentioned, my primary interest in this tartan is that I think the white stripes allow the other colors besides RREEDD to pop a bit.

I'm also aware that actual swatches can help a LOT. I became aware of Dr. Tewksbury about the time of my last visit to Scotland in the summer of 2023. Strolling and down the Royal Mile and even at Kinloch Anderson's shop near the Royal Yacht HMS Britannia it was impossible not to become impressed by the current popularity of monochromatic (what I call "grayscale) tartans. At roughly the same time, USA Kilts commissioned House of Edgar to produce a limited weaving just for them of "Lunar" tartan, which had been designed in the early 1970s, apparently because of the NASA Apollo moon landings. I'm not certain when Dr. Tewksbury began making kilts, but I DO know that she had a weaving done in the early two-thousand-teens, and at that time had a role in modifying the original colorways of the tartan because it contained a brown stripe. Her comment? I'm a planetary geologist, and there is NO BOWN on the moon. So a "Lunar2" version exists where the brown stripe has been replaced by a shade of gray, and that's what she's used (woven by DC Dalgliesh) to make Lunar Tartan kilts, then and now.

In any event, when I came home I decided it would be nice to have one of those "grayscale" tartans in my collection, and the Lunar2 tartan seemed to fit the bill as well as allow me to tell stories about the fabric's origin and evolution over just a few decades, but then I learned that Professor Tewksbury wasn't taken by the new weaving being done for USA Kilts, because Rocky Roeger is fond of marled yarn threads, which tend to soften the borders between stripes. Her critique of THAT cloth was equally incisive (paraphrasing): "There's no atmosphere on the moon, so the contrast between light and shadow is RAZOR sharp."

I was able to obtain actual fabric swatches of what she had used to make kilt wearers out of NASA astronauts and administrators and compare it with the fabric being made for USA Kilts, and they were DRAMATICALLY different.

I REALLY like my Dalgliesh/Tewksbury kilt!

So, if a limited run of fabric that might be done would be at least 30 meters, and I could provide customers for 2 or 3 kilts (two of them probably ladies kilts), perhaps a Fly plaid a ladies sash, and a pair of trews for my son, that would get me up to that threshold, would it not? And just HOW would I see an accurate representation of what would emerge from the loom? Would it be best to coordinate my request with my next trip to Scotland and a visit to the mill itself to look at their best imaging representation of Wilson's Robertson White Stripe would look like in the cloth?

And, one final question: since the way we'd get to 30 meters or more would be for multiple uses (traditional kilt, fly plaid, ladies kilt, ladies sash, and possibly a table runner from anything left over), would I be better off with 13 oz than 16 oz?

(Any and ALL opinions welcomed)!

[jsrnephdoc]

Yes they could. Here is a better image of a Wilsons' specimen with the white line. In this case the white is silk which adds an extra zing.

Now, THAT is interesting (and, in my eyes, beautiful). But I'm also curious whether the (primarily vertical) irregularities in the image are in the cloth, or just in the play of light on the cloth as it was being photographed).

Probably my favorite 4 hours of my last trip to Scotland were at Lochcarron Mills, but I had no IDEA that multiple types of yarn could be incorporated in the same weaving. I'm guessing the white silk might add significantly to the cloth price, and also guess (with even less basis for my inference) that it wouldn't appreciably change the feel of the fabric or the swing of its pleats in a kilt.

And, if you're following my other posts in the thread, could you comment on what would be the best way to get a pre-weaving assessment of just how a commissioned production would look in the cloth? (also addressed by Adrian).

I don't understand the question. Could you clarify what you mean?

(regarding the relationship between the two organizations, STA and SRT)

I consider myself at least somewhat knowledgeable, just knowing a bit about where on the knee a kilt bottom should lie, and even what "selvage" is, but I have essentially NO insight into Scottish Institutional organizations, even though I read The Herald's "Unspun: Scottish Politics" email newsletter almost daily.

I guess my question is just how the two entities would interrelate were the STA to complete renewing its website. For example might one be an official government agency, the other an independent educational resource?

Thanks again for your so-kind comments.

[jsrnephdoc]

Here is a better image of a Wilsons' specimen with the white line. In this case the white is silk which adds an extra zing.

And, now I must expose even MORE of my ignorance. Here's the electronic image of "Robertson White Line" from the SRT website that appears AFTER one clicks on the small placeholder on the page that shows all the results obtained by a search for "Robertson":

But, that first small placeholder image itself looks different, with the white lines NOT appearing to intersect in the middle of EVERY solid block of red:

I'll guess that the expanded image is more accurate, since in the placeholder some narrow stripes seem to contain BOTH green and white, with green dominating sometimes, white other times, likely a photographic artifact.

And, of course, that doesn't address the variation in red shading in what you've just posted (brighter, and a bit more "orange-infused."

If ever I progress to an actual commissioning of the folk in Selkirk or elsewhere to weaving fabric for me, I guess I'll need to show them this thread…

[Adrian]

What I'm hoping to do for anyone who is serious about doing a custom weave is to post some color samples from the stock I have, it is a good starting point so a person can ponder, it's no good rushing. It always looks different on a different day in a different light. Usually sellotape or staple to a piece of paper a bunch of threads of a color is a starting point. The dyers provide us with a batch reference like this. Sometimes I take 2 versions of a stripe to the mill and see which the warping team thinks works best.

[Adrian]

The fraser job we've just done the green and blue is very close to your image, you wouldn't think so looking at our photos on the Web, I've a couple of reds that come to mind. Also we don't use a pure white, it has a bit of grey in the mix.

[Adrian]

If we are to work on a bespoke special weave for anyone in the first instance an idea of a tartan version, photos, Scottish tartan register reference (there colours have RGB and hex codes...) so we have a starting point and we could provide a small number of yarn samples, 2 or 3 of a particular colour see photo which are currently stocked for producing heavyweight 500 g/lm and lightweight 325 g/lm fabric.
There are ideas to invest and move forward with out yarnstock, but need a good early 2026 trading in order to cover that investment

[Troglodyte]

I understand that Stathmore Woollens, the weavers based in Forfar, has a range of four Wilsons' colours tartans, and intend to expand this.

Strathmore has in their posession one of Wilsons' original sample books - these photos show two of the current weavings laid over the Wilsons original. Allowing for 200 years of aging and changes in dying and weaving technology, the closeness of the current product is pretty accurate.

[figheadair]

I understand that Stathmore Woollens, the weavers based in Forfar, has a range of four Wilsons' colours tartans, and intend to expand this.

Strathmore has in their posession one of Wilsons' original sample books - these photos show two of the current weavings laid over the Wilsons original. Allowing for 200 years of aging and changes in dying and weaving technology, the closeness of the current product is pretty accurate.

Yes, they have done a good job with this limited range. I wonder who is actually doing their weaving? One of the issues I have with their cloth is that it has a tuck edge and not a selvedge which makes its use for historical work problematical.

[figheadair]

And, now I must expose even MORE of my ignorance. Here's the electronic image of "Robertson White Line" from the SRT website that appears AFTER one clicks on the small placeholder on the page that shows all the results obtained by a search for "Robertson":

But, that first small placeholder image itself looks different, with the white lines NOT appearing to intersect in the middle of EVERY solid block of red:

I'll guess that the expanded image is more accurate, since in the placeholder some narrow stripes seem to contain BOTH green and white, with green dominating sometimes, white other times, likely a photographic artifact.

I don't pretend to understand the technicalities beyond the fact that this is the result of electronic graphic generation and an issue with scaling inaccuracies.

And, of course, that doesn't address the variation in red shading in what you've just posted (brighter, and a bit more "orange-infused."

If ever I progress to an actual commissioning of the folk in Selkirk or elsewhere to weaving fabric for me, I guess I'll need to show them this thread…

They all know me and my research, so simply point them in my direction if you go down that route.