Earliest use of brass-cantle sporrans?

[figheadair]

Peter and Matt...question for both of you. Are you aware if the bags on those 18th century cantles are also original or were they replaced at some point throughout the life of the sporran? They are both obviously old leather...especially the MacGregor one. Also...on the one that Peter posted (and I think I remember reading a thread before about this particular sporran but have forgotten...so I apologize if we're recovering old ground)...what is the purpose of the holes drilled in the face of the cantle? Were they from repairs to the latch mechanism?

I think my bag is original here's the inside. I cannot account for the holes but think that they may have been drilled at a later date.

[figheadair]

About old sporrans in museums, we must be aware that these tell us the what but not the when.

So besides that cantle Matt posted with a date on it, we're in the dark about the when of the brass cantle, at least from material evidence.

So we turn to old portraits. Unfortunately it's often difficult to tell whether the cantle is supposed to be leather or metal.

The portrait of James Moray by Jerimiah Davidson c1744 shows a grey sealskin sporran with matching flap.

I've never come acrosss sealskin sporrans until the mid-Cth19th at the eHaving seen the original portrait I have to disagree. The sporran

By the 1780s there are various paintings showing rectangular metal cantles. So where is there an 18th century portrait showing the semicircular brass cantle so often seen in museums?

There is a portrait of MacGregor of Glengyle c1750 that shows a fine curved brass cantled sporran.

One of the problems with earlier portraits is that often the waistcoat covers the top of the sporran so it's impossible to determine what the cantle is like.

[OC Richard]

I've never come acrosss sealskin sporrans until the mid-Cth19th at the eHaving seen the original portrait I have to disagree.

I think I've seen the original too... if it was at The National Portrait Gallery, or one of the castles... I can't recall. But in photos it's quite clear that it's sealskin. Nothing else looks remotely like mottled grey sealskin.

Anyhow here's an 18th century portrait which quite clearly shows sealskin, and I've seen the original many times, because it's here in Los Angeles! Yes the one in The National Museums Scotland is an unsigned copy, while the one in the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) it the signed and dated original. (The copy is somewhat different, see the seperate thread "A Tale of Two Paintings".)

Here's the original, signed J. S. Copley 1780

[figheadair]

I think I've seen the original too... if it was at The National Portrait Gallery, or one of the castles... I can't recall. But in photos it's quite clear that it's sealskin. Nothing else looks remotely like mottled grey sealskin.

I still disagree. I doubt that you've seen the original as it's still in the family at Abercairney and has never, so far as I know, been shown. I will have to dig out the pictures that I took of it which I still believe show the sporran to be plain brown.

Anyhow here's an 18th century portrait which quite clearly shows sealskin, and I've seen the original many times, because it's here in Los Angeles! Yes the one in The National Portrait Gallery is an unsigned copy, while the one in the Los Angeles Museum of Art it the signed and dated original. The copy is somewhat different, the angle of the sword-arm was changed and the background altered. Here's the copy, in Scotland

Thanks for highlighting this portrait. I had no idea that there was a copy albeit with differences. My understanding is that the portrait is somewhat after the date that it portrays and was painted by Copley c1770. What date is on the original? The sporran is certainly fur and brass cantled but I'm not sure one can say with certainty that it's seal skin. It could equally be exotic cat of some sort.

It's a shame that it's not in better condition but the central figure in the Dutch Wall Mural looks as though it might have a mental cantle.

[georgeetta]

rob roys sporran has a brass cantle adn leatheren bag ..was in hands of Argyll ?
his sgian and a ..a snuff box ..they are shown on a book plate way back ..

many Black Watch officers of 1700's had their paintings done ..Montgomerie or Campbell had a badger one with a square top plain old pourse think ..chekc out ..The Lt Col Francis MacNab's by Raeburn ..

I've a book Scottish tartans ..or tartan book ..had many 1700's paitings .

th
d

[georgeetta]

guy in paiting i think is Lt Col Hugh ? Montgomery ..Montgomery's highlanders french indian war ..Pennsylvania and New York ..I've seen John Campbell's to and it was misnamed back and forth ..

I'll try and check ..also ..ask ........ummmmmm .......fit's his name .....uhhhhhhhh ......mmmmmmm ....pfffffft .......................George Neumann American Revolutionary War expert ..

sorry

d

[georgeetta]

sorry far as casting goes ..
many parts black powder gun parts ..buttplates ..many mnay decorations are cast ..wax and sand ..they might toss you a bone ..my Uncle was a mouler ..Cpl Seaforths Bren Gunner ..post WW2 .

d

[longhuntr74]

sorry far as casting goes ..
many parts black powder gun parts ..buttplates ..many mnay decorations are cast ..wax and sand ..they might toss you a bone ..my Uncle was a mouler ..Cpl Seaforths Bren Gunner ..post WW2 .

d

What are you talking about...in any of these three posts...but especially this post? I can't follow what you are trying to say?

[artificer]

What are you talking about...in any of these three posts...but especially this post? I can't follow what you are trying to say?

***

Grammar and punctuation are our friends. Let's make sure to use them so our posts our intelligible to all.
ith:

[Spartan Tartan]

What are you talking about...in any of these three posts...but especially this post? I can't follow what you are trying to say?

I was having the same thought. I am able to make sense of the referred to posts either.