Dress codes and changing trends

[JohntheBiker]

I think that Nathan's fine tuning is closer to the mark, although I believe that a tweed Argyll and waistcoat can be worn when morning suit is called for. I've seen pictures of that at royal weddings. However, I can't think of many occasions when morning suits are called for, at least on this side of the pond. I have had occasion to wear a morning suit precisely once (brother's wedding, many, many years ago).

[Jock Scot]

I think that Nathan's fine tuning is closer to the mark, although I believe that a tweed Argyll and waistcoat can be worn when morning suit is called for. I've seen pictures of that at royal weddings. However, I can't think of many occasions when morning suits are called for, at least on this side of the pond. I have had occasion to wear a morning suit precisely once (brother's wedding, many, many years ago).

I am pretty sure I know the picture that you refer to. I will see if I can find it. We need to be careful here. The invitation was for "morning dress OR(my italics) lounge suits", so the gentleman wearing the tweed argyll was perfectly attired in lounge suit equivalent. Pictures should carry health warnings as it is so easy to draw the wrong conclusions from them, without details of context.

Found it!Is this the one JB?

[JohntheBiker]

I am pretty sure I know the picture that you refer to. I will see if I can find it. We need to be careful here. The invitation was for "morning dress OR(my italics) lounge suits", so the gentleman wearing the tweed argyll was perfectly attired in lounge suit equivalent. Pictures should carry health warnings as it is so easy to draw the wrong conclusions from them, without details of context.

Found it!Is this the one JB?

Thank you Jock for the clarification. The devil is in the details.

[MacThomas]

I am pretty sure I know the picture that you refer to. I will see if I can find it. We need to be careful here. The invitation was for "morning dress OR(my italics) lounge suits", so the gentleman wearing the tweed argyll was perfectly attired in lounge suit equivalent. Pictures should carry health warnings as it is so easy to draw the wrong conclusions from them, without details of context.

Found it!Is this the one JB?

This pic is for me the ideal for highland dress

[Liam]

This pic is for me the ideal for highland dress

This indeed ideal highland dress for what the "Brits" would call a Lounge suit, or across the pond, Business wear. It would not be suitable for a formal black or white tie occasion. Btw, it would be perfect for attending Highland games, and for that matter almost any "other than formal" event, imho.
Cheers

[Tobus]

...it occurs to me that kilt wearers, on this forum and elsewhere, appear to be bucking the current trend for more and more casual dress and are if anything dressing at a higher level than dress codes strictly call for. I see doublets in photos non white tie events, I see PCs worn here there and everywhere even though black tie invites are rare these days. I see PCs and black barathea Argylls worn to events which are technically 'lounge suit' events, I see tweed Argylls at Highland Games and recitals when the Saxons are wearing something rather less than a suit, and I see photos of the occasional (often extremely beautiful) hair sporran worn with daywear.

In reality, there are two things going on here, and they must be separated. Some kilt wearers are indeed bucking the trend toward casual dress by "upping the ante", as it were. However, some of the things you are describing are based purely on ignorance or misinformation about what is expected. I have seen people wearing PC coatees at Highland Games, not because they wanted to look sharper than others, but because they didn't even know it was an evening jacket.

I'm one of those who wears a tweed Argyll jacket and tie to Highland Games while the rest of the (non-kilt-wearing) slobs are in t-shirts and flip-flops. But then again, I often wear a tie and jacket to work, while everyone else is in polo-style shirts. I'm just old-fashioned that way, I guess.

Now some further questions. Am I correct, or just seeing selectively?
Is this the peacock in us trying to get out?
Are we sub-consciously rebelling against the current slide into pyjamas and onesies for all occasions?
Is it 'wrong' to deviate from the accepted codes in this way?
Is this a trend that will stick and eventually alter the accepted norms?
Is this a good thing?
Is it worthwhile having a dress codes 'sticky'?
Am I talking out of my hoop?

I think those are great questions! Some here, undoubtedly, have the peacock thing going on (and it's always tempting to overdo it with Highland dress, what with all the finery available). But there is a group of people here, such as myself, Kyle (creagdubh), Nathan, ShaunMaxwell, and many others, who I think are just regular folks who want to do it right, present themselves with dignity and a healthy modicum of self-respect, and follow a tradition of being well-dressed gentlemen. (Note that I use the word gentlemen in the modern context, not with any reference to titles or nobility.)

This may stray a bit from the original questions, or perhaps be Too Much Information, but I think there is a larger issue at stake here. Modern western culture is undergoing some pretty radical changes. The way people dress is only one of many indicators of a cultural decline. Other indicators are the usage of language (both spoken and written), popular music, education levels, religious demographics, popular entertainment, political trends, etc. Some of these subjects are, of course, off limits to this particular discussion. But suffice it to say that western culture is shifting radically away from the traditional, and I'm sure there are many who would argue that this is not a "decline" at all. I disagree. While there are various aspects to traditional culture that are better left in the past, and upon which we can greatly improve our society, I think the overall trend is not good.

I won't presume to speak for others, but I have no interest in going along with the flow. Dressing conservatively is only one of many ways in which I am making my own humble attempt to preserve the world I know. Some may see it as "rebelling" against the current trend towards ridiculously inappropriate casual dress. But I don't really think of it in those terms when I get dressed each morning for work, or when I put on the kilt. It has nothing to do with trying to dress contrary to others. But it has everything to do with dressing according to a set of values that is respectful, conservative, and traditional.

There are times when I do dress casually. But the difference, I think, is that most people dress that way ALL THE TIME, and don't understand why it's inappropriate to do so. Sadly, we live in an age where this has been going on for so long that there is an entire generation of people who weren't raised with any sense of appropriateness in their manner of dress. Their parents did not teach it to them. Within another generation or two, it will be lost entirely.

It remains to be seen whether the slide towards pyjamas and onesies will continue in our society, or if there will be a turnaround. There does seem to be a trend with the young hipsters (or whatever they call themselves these days; I can't keep up with it) to dress a little more sharply. However, from what I've seen, it's an odd sort of mocking of traditional dress. Wearing fedoras and ties that are only loosely knotted. Or wearing t-shirts with sport coats. It's not a return to any sort of distinguished manner of dress, but at least it's not muscle shirts and droopy shorts.

Eh, sorry for the ramble. I do think it's a good thing for folks here to try to wear kilts in a traditional manner, and I hope it's a trend that picks up and spills over into everyday life.

[Manxstralian]

But suffice it to say that western culture is shifting radically away from the traditional, and I'm sure there are many who would argue that this is not a "decline" at all. I disagree. While there are various aspects to traditional culture that are better left in the past, and upon which we can greatly improve our society, I think the overall trend is not good.

I won't presume to speak for others, but I have no interest in going along with the flow. Dressing conservatively is only one of many ways in which I am making my own humble attempt to preserve the world I know.

Agreed 100%!

As George Orwell said regarding language (which I see as a parallel);

"Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts." (Politics and the English Language, 1946).

Regards,

Cameron

[tpa]

Whilst I'll admit to a tendency to dress down rather than up, it does seem a shame that the opportunities for more formal wear seem so few and far between these days. It's over 20 years since I last had the opportunity (and could afford) to go to a formal evening event. The clothes should last for many generations at the current rate, provided the moths don't get at them; so it is possibly no surprise if people trot out 'inappropriate' wear occasionally just to get some use out of it.

[okiwen]

All this is well and good. I like to dress up and I like to dress casual. I have just plain run out of closet space. No two ways about it, I am now trying desperately to learn how to look good as I can't help but look, with fewer items.

[MacRobert's Reply]

I have just plain run out of closet space. No two ways about it, I am now trying desperately to learn how to look good as I can't help but look, with fewer items.

A sound approach okiwen. Go for quality rather than quantity. Quality may or may not correlate with price but invariably relates to fit, fabric and tailoring. It is also IMHO worth investing in timeless classics rather than fashion fads which are fleeting and have designed-in (and often built-in) obsolescence.