Help with white tie

[McClef]

M.O.R. - I do not have a penchant for picklehaube helmets even for non-motorcycle use.

I still cannot accept your premise that someone who is 100% "correctly" dressed somehow magically vanishes into the background or that someone who is 90-99% is somehow ridiculed. Whereas one may regret relaxations in standards of formal dress from a more elitist "good old days" our more egalitarian age views what is dressy in a different way.

I am glad you are able to get BBC4. I do not know what the dress standards of Japanese Court etiquette are but from what I have seen, the Imperial males are more likely to be seen in western clothing. Hirohito after the war is usually seen in Morning Dress with frock coat and striped trousers. HMQ may have had the option of a kimono for all I know. When she has called on the Pope in an official capacity she followed an apparent convention for a black dress and veil for a non-Catholic Sovereign but it has modernised since earlier such visits to previous Popes. A demonstration of how conventions get adapted over time perhaps?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have seen this spelling from time to time in books or on the internet.
I wonder when "sgian dubh" became the more common/accepted spelling that is used now?

Good question. Having a quick look through a half dozen or so books on my desk the transformation from "skean dhu" to "sgian duhb" seems to have gradually built up steam starting c. 1950 with sgian dubh as the preferred form coming in to general usage in the late seventies/early eighties. But really, my opinion this is only barely more than a haphazard guess.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Does Army full mess dress count as formal? If that is the case, I probably take the award for most formal events.

I would be wary about using a book from 1912 as a guide to modern court dress, especially as many class barriers have been broken down since that time. I would wear white tie, black tie, morning coat, full mess dress, or highland dress appropriately, but there are others who will show up at events wearing black tie or even suits these days. Cripes in the states, you even see blazers.

As one person pointed out, it is not unusual to see national costume at a formal ball in London, WDC, or Brussels. Traveling with the Army, I would be entertained by Arab or African wearing their native dress. I would look silly wearing full Arab dress as anything other than a costume.

Full highland dress is not really white tie. White tie is white tie and tails. While a full highland dress outfit can be worn to a white tie occasion, it should not be confused with white tie.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I would be wary about using a book from 1912 as a guide to modern court dress

I agree, although there has very little change since 1912 in the style of dress, undoubtedly the occasions on which court dress is worn have become fewer over the decades.

I chose to quote the 1912 edition of Dress Worn At Court because it covered all of the items worn in the illustration (which probably dates from the 1930's or 40's). Earlier editions would have included pistols and powder horns, something now dispensed with (except, perhaps, by some Americans).

Upon re-visiting the photograph of David Hepburn referred to in my original posting I note that he is actually wearing evening dress, and not court dress-- I should have looked beyond the velvet doublet, but was distracted by his sporran.

Full highland dress is not really white tie. White tie is white tie and tails. While a full highland dress outfit can be worn to a white tie occasion, it should not be confused with white tie.

I totally agree you: white tie is just that -- white tie. I am always faintly bemused when attending a formal function "south of the border" or "over the water" and someone shows up in "white tie" highland attire. True, it has its place at a "Scottish" function on Halkin Street, but it always looks faintly "costumey" at the Banqueting Hall in Westminster. But then I'm one of those fuddy-duddies who believes that you don't wear highland attire outside of Scotland, unless at a Scottish event.

[JSFMACLJR]

Black silk velvet Full Dress Doublet. Silk lined.
Set of silver Celtic or Crest Buttons for Doublet.
Superfine Tartan Full Dress Kilt.
Short Trews.
Full Dress Tartan Stockings.
Full Dress long Shoulder Plaid.
Full Dress white hair Sporran--silver mounted and Tassels.
Patent leather and silver chain Strap for Sporran.
Full Dress silver mounted Dirk with Knife and Fork.
Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu with Knife.
Patent leather Shoulder Belt, silver mounted.
Patent leather Waist Belt, silver clasp.
Silver mounted Shoulder Brooch.
Silver Kilt Pin.
Lace Jabot.
One pair Buckles for instep of Shoes.
One pair small ankle Buckles for Shoes.
Full Dress Brogues.
Highland Claymore.
Glengarry or Balmoral. Crest or Ornament.

This is copied exactly as it appears in the 1912 edition of DRESS WORN AT COURT which was issued with the authority of the Lord Chamberlain. There are a couple of things worth commenting on (aside from the spelling of "skean dhu"):

.

These regulations became obsolete in 1937, when "Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court" was published under the authority of the Lord Chamberlain. Highland Dress for gentlemen now became:

From the 1937 edition (page 121):

Dress DOUBLET (not necessarily buttoned) of velvet, cloth (any dark
colour) or tartan.

WAISTCOAT (if Doublet not worn buttoned up) of velvet, cloth (any
colour) or tartan - cut high.

Dress KILT.

Dress HOSE.

PLAID (either "Shoulder" - worn long round body and over left
shoulder, or "Belted" - worn on left shoulder and round waist).

SHOULDER BROOCH for Plaid.

Dress SPORRAN, any pattern, of hair, fur, or skin.

Dress SPORRAN STRAP or CHAIN, any pattern.

Highland basket hilted SWORD, black leather (or metal mounted)
Scabbard.

CROSS BELT of leather (or metal mounted) for carrying the sword worn
over right shoulder.

Dress DIRK.

WAIST BELT of leather (or metal mounted) with buckle, for carrying
Dirk. (This is optional, as Dirk can be carried on belt worn under
Waistcoat or Doublet).

Dess "SKEAN DHU" worn in hose.

PIN for apron of kilt.

JABOT, lace (lace, silk, satin or lawn stock).

CUFFS, lace.

Dress SHOES (with buckle), or brogues, black leather, for evening
wear, buckle optional.

HIGHLAND BONNET - crest or badge worn in it - with Feather or
Feathers for those entitled to them.

Note.-Highland Pistols and Powder Horn may be worn.

Gloves are not worn.



Kind regards,
Sandford MacLean

[Coemgen]

Just check Uniformalwearhouse.

Dress sporran: $45.00 (a bit much for my bank account, but I can manage)
White pique wing collar shirt: $19.95 (affordbale)
White pique bow tie: $14.95 (seems a bit much, but reasonable)
White pique vest: $59.99 ()

I'm not entirely sure that I can get the vest and the sporran

Anyone know anyplace where I can get a white pique vest (or a dress sporran - or both) for a bit less (by "a bit," I mean enough to make the total ≤ $100.00, if possible)?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Just check Uniformalwearhouse.

Dress sporran: $45.00 (a bit much for my bank account, but I can manage)
White pique wing collar shirt: $19.95 (affordbale)
White pique bow tie: $14.95 (seems a bit much, but reasonable)
White pique vest: $59.99 ()

I'm not entirely sure that I can get the vest and the sporran

Anyone know anyplace where I can get a white pique vest (or a dress sporran - or both) for a bit less (by "a bit," I mean enough to make the total ≤ $100.00, if possible)?

Kevin-
the leather silver mounted sporran is okay, and since you'll be "performing" on stage the fly plaid would be okay, too. I once saw Kenneth McKeller in concert, and he wore a fly plaid. It would be different "off-stage" at a dinner or a party, but when performing it's okay to hold the attention of your audience by the way you dress.

What size are you? PM me your details and I'll see if I've got a spare white waistcoat your size. (You might also ask at your local tux shop about a used white waistcoat.)

[Coemgen]

One more thing.

I know that the sporran should be a fur one with a silver cantle. However, in the interests of not spending myself into oblivion, would this ($25):



… be an acceptable substitution for these ($45 ea.)?

[Tullibardine]

White Tie in a kilt - as for black tie except white waistcoat, tartan or diced hose, BUCKLE BROGUES in patent leather, dirk, black Inverness cape, no headgear.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

White Tie in a kilt - as for black tie except white waistcoat, tartan or diced hose, BUCKLE BROGUES in patent leather, dirk, black Inverness cape, no headgear.

Hello, Mr. Sherwood. What do you hear from Az?