formal evening dress: vest or no?

[CMcG]

<snip>
While you, or anyone, should certainly take the advice, opinions, and/or photographic evidence from members of this forum into consideration when thinking about your Highlandwear choices, let them help you to make YOUR choices about YOUR personal style, not dictate them. Let the examples here be your guides, not your gospel. Like Jock said, it would be no fun if we all dressed alike.

<snip>
I can't be the only one on here who bows to a higher authority when it comes to sartorial colour clashes in public, even if it is traditional to ignore them when you're wearing the kilt.

I like to ask for opinions both on this forum and off it but usually also ask for a justification. That's why I greatly appreciate when people explain how they hold a given view, whether it be based on aesthetics, convention, whim, or anything else. Asking for explanations also usually sparks a better debate than a "yes or no" question and I greatly enjoy a good debate

I also find photographic examples from the rabble to be a great help. The internet is full of images from rental/retailers that might make one think white hose, ruche ties, and ghillie brogues were the height of Highland style!

While in the end I always follow my own personal style, I prefer to inform it with sage advice from those more knowledgeable than I. For street wear I'm less concerned about outside opinions (except from my lass), when kilted amongst the ignorant and bifurcated I just need to look good, but if I were to wear my kilt to a formal, Scottish event I believe being as informed as possible about tradition becomes a matter of respect.

As for the higher authority that sfb mentions, mine has weighed in on the discussion and says she likes the waistcoat because it adds another layer of interest to the ensemble that a belt cannot achieve.

[Bugbear]

I like the jabot and look forward to seeing people wear it, be it for white or black tie, or just because it is so much fun to mess with people ( Epater les Bourgeoises). And, to some degree, a lot of this discussion is like Fantasy Football- we do wear these things, but many of us describe them more than we actually put them on.

I hope I am wrong there.

And wrong is probably what I am about Traditional vs Historical, especially in THIS forum, but I think it is useful to remember that Traditional either evolves or it is merely another word for Historical.

I expect a handy and practical trick is to find a picture of the outfit one contemplates, many of which are above, and to ask oneself "Will that look good on me? Do I like the way that looks?" And there is your answer. We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

As DLP said about my own folly, de gustibus non est disputandem.

Ok, I'm sorry. MacLowlife is in charge of suggesting the jabot from now on.

Where's those emergancy jabot instructions you said you would post?

[MacLowlife]

Q: How long have you been wearing those frilly underpants around your neck?
A. Ever since my wife found them in my sporran.

[auld argonian]

It's sort of ironic that those of us who choose to attend formal events in our Scottish finery should be so concerned about adhering to a strict code of dress...I've been to several formal events (none of them Scottish...no St. Andrew's or Burns events) lately and it's open season on what's fair for formalwear out there. There's the larger number of men who at wear proper formalwear with some variations and then there are the types who project the impression that they're just too busy or too rich to bother with such things and show up in a suit and tie.

Best

AA

[Lyle1]

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

[davidlpope]

It's sort of ironic that those of us who choose to attend formal events in our Scottish finery should be so concerned about adhering to a strict code of dress...

Hmmm...Here's a slightly different take on it:

Most folks in the US generally know what a tuxedo is, even if they don't own one or wear one much. They also know that one doesn't wear a tuxedo to a baseball game, or to a morning wedding, or to a picnic at the fairgrounds. Additionally, unless one is attempting to make a "fashion statement", you don't wear a tuxedo jacket with a pair of blue jeans, or a t-shirt. Even folks who have only worn evening attire for their high school prom intuitively know these conventions because they have been exposed to evening wear in movies, etc. So, people accept that tuxedo = "fancy, formal, special occasions", not general wear.

Generally, those same folks in the US have not been exposed to Highland formal dress. They don't have the same intuitive sense of what is proper and what is not. I've seen Prince Charlie coatees (the equivalent of a tuxedo/ dinner jacket) worn with golf shirts, open neck polo shirts, even t-shirts. I've seen them worn at Highland Games in the middle of the day in 95+ degree weather.

My theory is this: When these well-meaning, but confused, folks do this, it's because they don't look at a Prince Charlie coatee and think, "That's a formal jacket to wear with my kilt for black tie events." Instead they look at a PC and think, "That's the sort of jacket that one is supposed to wear when one wears a kilt." So, when the local Highland games rolls around, this fellow dons his Prince Charlie coatee, because "well, this is what one wears with a kilt."

So, a set of "rules" that substitutes for the sort of knowledge one should "intuitively" know from being immersed in a particular culture is a good thing. That doesn't mean that once one understands these conventions that there isn't room for individual tastes and style.

Cordially,

David

[Zardoz]

I've seen Prince Charlie coatees (the equivalent of a tuxedo/ dinner jacket) worn with golf shirts, open neck polo shirts, even t-shirts. I've seen them worn at Highland Games in the middle of the day in 95+ degree weather.

My theory is this: When these well-meaning, but confused, folks do this, it's because they don't look at a Prince Charlie coatee and think, "That's a formal jacket to wear with my kilt for black tie events." Instead they look at a PC and think, "That's the sort of jacket that one is supposed to wear when one wears a kilt." So, when the local Highland games rolls around, this fellow dons his Prince Charlie coatee, because "well, this is what one wears with a kilt."

David

I think David is on the money with this reasoning. The difference in my mind of a regular 'kilt wearer' who wears it as much as he can, as opposed to a 'kilt owner' who sees it as a costume. I've seen the same sort of things, full on PC outfit during the day at the games, PC jacket over a pirate shirt at renfair etc...

I call this the "I paid for this outfit, I'm gonna wear it" syndrome; these fellows bought that rig for some event, wedding, Burns upper, etc., and now any time there is a "kilt thing" they drag it all out and put it on, many of them only once or twice a year. Most of them view it as a costume, the idea of the kilt with other types of clothes/levels of dress doesn't occur to them. I know I've heard that attitude from 'non-kiltwearers' before, I read a post on a menswear forum where a guy complained about a kiltie at his church, saying; "He had on a kilt and those socks, but not the rest of the outfit, just a shirt and tie".

Another 'subset' of this is the "I paid for this outfit, I'm gonna wear it, even if it doesn't fit anymore" syndrome; This one is in evidence at Burns suppers and other formal events around the world, when they drag it all out and put it on once a year, even though they've gained 20+ pounds since they bought the thing. Y'all know what I mean, thats when you see that expanse of white shirted belly between the top of the too tight kilt and PC/waistcoat. That's actually a time when the PC and belt/waistplate might be the better option, (and to be honest, when I see the P/C - belt combo, I assume this is the case) but of course some of those belts don't have a lot of adjustment either!

[MacBean]

Prince Charlie, Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, Mess, Sheriffmuir, Regulation, Argyle, Braemar, Crail, Doublets, Coatees, ...

I wonder if anyone has written an illustrated guide for jackets? I surely can't be the only one who gets lost!

[Zardoz]

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

This is what the backless style waistcoat is for, Plus it has the advantage of being adjustible.

[davidlpope]

Prince Charlie, Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, Mess, Sheriffmuir, Regulation, Argyle, Braemar, Crail, Doublets, Coatees, ...

I wonder if anyone has written an illustrated guide for jackets? I surely can't be the only one who gets lost!

Here's what I've gleaned:

Doublets- a broad category of the most formal evening wear jackets, encompassing the Sherrifmuir, Regulation, Montrose, Kenmore, and other similar but unnamed styles. Most are designed to be worn with lace jabot and cuffs.

Coatee- a less formal type of evening wear jacket encompassing the Prince Charlie. The "Brian Boru" is a recent modification of a Prince Charlie that was created for Irish kilt-wearers (by our own MOR, I think?).

Mess Jackets- These are military or military-inspired evening wear jackets that do not typically extend past the waist (i.e. no Inverness skirts/ tashes, no Prince Charlie back flaps.) These seem to be more rare, although here is a great photo of P/M John D. Burgess wearing a rifle green one:


Crail, Argyll, and Braemar are multiple (and IMHO unnecessary) names for different permutations of the same kilt jacket, according to the sleeve ornamentation. See this thread, post #2 by McMurdo: http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...31/#post435770

I really don't have a clue what a "Spencer" or an "Eton" jacket is. I've never seen that name used in reference to traditional highland dress.

Cordially,

David