formal evening dress: vest or no?

[saxandpipes]

Not to muddy the waters, but the PC seems to me to be directly related to the Saxon white tie tailcoat, which is usually worn with a waistcoat. I believe the cummerbund derives from sashes. There may be some connection or there may not.

That might explain it.

I regularly have to wear white-tie, playing in the symphony orchestra. This should (as far as I'm concerned) include a white waistcoat, to match the tailcoat. One time the particular orchestra I was playing with required a black cummerbund instead of the waistcoat, and I have to say that I felt downright stupid. To me it just looked ugly, and destroyed the lines that white-tie dress creates, not unlike the kilt (when done properly).

I think the whole point is that the man is made to look taller and slimmer. This is completely negated when when you chop the whole ensemble in half with a cummerbund.



wrong


Here is how it should be done (and I mean the well-dressed man on the left- the other has also managed to get it wrong, the white strip below the jacket having the same chopping effect as the cummerbund).



Cheers,

Michael

[Macman]

MacLowlife, it's a Sergeant's sash. They're worn in the Commonwealth forces, are red, and denote Sergeants, Warrant Officers, etc. I've never worn one, so I'll leave it to someone else to give more detail.

[macwilkin]

MacLowlife, it's a Sergeant's sash. They're worn in the Commonwealth forces, are red, and denote Sergeants, Warrant Officers, etc. I've never worn one, so I'll leave it to someone else to give more detail.

Sashes were also worn by officers and NCO's of the US Army during the 19th century as a symbol of rank, and the officer's sash worn over the right shoulder:

http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link27.htm

T.

[AFS1970]

I do so like to learn things. Although I see hat for years what I wore was a violation of the rules. It is a good thing that even with the much older crowd at the Saint Andrew's Society, there was not a Kilt Policeman in the lot.

When I bought my kilt, I bought a set that came with the PC, 3 button Waistcoat, and Belt with silver buckle, as well as a few other things. No mention was ever made of not wearing it all together. When I would go to dinners, It was quite common to see dirks being worn with the PC and this required the wearing of a belt. I wonder would a belt with a buckle other than silver be useful for such a purpose?

As I no longer own a PC or vest, as a matter of fact I no longer own anything that could be considered formal wear, this is not an issue for me. Just about the only formality rule that still applies is the wearing of jeweled items only at evening and plain only at the day. I recently had to adjust even that one, as I was at an event that started at noon time but ended late into the evening. I chose plain, as more o the event seemed informal than formal.

[Bruce Scott]

MacLowlife, it's a Sergeant's sash. They're worn in the Commonwealth forces, are red, and denote Sergeants, Warrant Officers, etc. I've never worn one, so I'll leave it to someone else to give more detail.

The Australian Army Infantry Corps adopted the scarlet sash worn by warrant officers class two and senior NCOs from the British Army, which has been wearing it since the 17th century. Some were worn around the waist, whilst others were worn over the shoulder. The sashes were used as badges of rank. However, it is said that they also had a practical purpose, originally being used to drag the wounded from the battlefield. Legend also has it that because they became blood stained it was decided that they would be coloured scarlet so as to 'hide' the blood stains.

The British Regiments of Foot had officers wearing silken sashes over the left shoulder and senior NCOs wore worsted sashes over the right shoulder. Today in the Australian Army, general officers and officers holding certain appointments wear sashes around their waist when dressed in Ceremonial Dress. Infantry warrant officers class two, senior NCOs and senior cadets at the Royal Military College Duntroon , wear the scarlet sash when on parade, in mess dress and when carrying out regimental duties.

There are many tall stories told in messes about the scarlet sash and its cords (or tassels). Stories of the cords range from their representing British Army campaigns or Army line regiments to their use for counting casualties on the battlefield. None of these are true and are often used to leg-pull the newly promoted sergeant.

Source: http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/stayarmy/RAINF.asp

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Generally speaking, at least in military terms, sashes are indicative of rank/command. In some fraternal organizations sashes are also worn as either a badge of membership or rank within the fraternity. In the Boy Scots of America khaki sashes were adopted as a method of displaying merit badges. Each badge being about the size of an American half-dollar (approx 30mm) there just wasn't adequate room on the shirt front for the display of the dozens of badges a boy could earn.

In Britain, where there are a number of Royal and State orders of honour or merit a Broad Riband or Cordon is awarded as part of the distinctive insignia associated with the first class of membership. This is usually referred to as the "Grand Cross of the Order of X" and, with the exception of the Order of the Garter, the broad riband or cordon is worn over the right shoulder, with the knot (or bow) resting on the left hip. Pendant from the knot is the badge of the order. The broad riband of the Garter is worn over the left shoulder with the knot resting on the right hip with the badge (known as the Lesser St. George) pendant from the knot.

Civilians only wear the broad riband of an order with white tie, and it is the custom in Great Britain to wear the broad riband under the coat but over the waistcoat. This applies to Highland attire, the exception being gentlemen in Kenmore or Montrose doublets who would naturally wear their broad riband outside of their jacket. For other forms of formal Highland dress an abbreviated broad riband is worn which attaches to the waistcoat rather than passing over the shoulder and around the body.

And because someone might want to know...

Civilians do not wear broad ribands and cordons with black tie.

[creagdhubh]

I'm wondering about vests (a.k.a. waistcoats) or lack thereof worn with the Prince Charlie and jackets/doublets of similar distinction: Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, Mess? The context would be formal evening wear, which in my neck of the woods is black tie/tuxedo equivalent.

In Charles Thompson's So You're Going to Wear the Kilt! he suggests that a black leather belt with shiny waist-plate is as appropriate as a 3 button vest (not both together) with a PC and black bow-tie. I've also seen pictures showing 5 button waistcoats worn with cravats/Ascots, with the extra height of the vest accommodating the length needing to be tucked in. From what I've gathered thus far, this gives three options for the PC or its approximate equivalents:
1. 3 button vest with bow-tie
2. 5 button vest with cravat
3. belt and waist-plate with bow-tie

If Thompson and the retail/rental catalogues are attempting to provide theory, what is the practice?

Which configuration do you prefer and why?

Pictures are most welcome!

I like to wear a three button vest made of black barathea, or tartan cut on the bias, with my regulation doublet. I really love the latter!

[MacLowlife]

Thanks, MoR,

I am / was among those interested to hear about the Broad Riband, including civilian Black Tie.

I am a member of an organization that bestows a medallion (on a neck ribbon) on its past presidents, but has no badge of office for the current president. I had thought that a sash in the same color, not unlike the Order of the Arrow, might be a good insignia for the office, but got no particular enthusiasm. We may end up with a chain, like a Lord Mayor's, or some kind of staff, like a bishop's crozier. Or we may stick with the status quo- zip. The president appears only once or twice in full dress during his year of office, so it may be simplest to remain unencumbered. Perhaps a live badger on a leash...

[OC Richard]

This thread has been very interesting, as I see that amongst Highland men it's very common to wear an Evening jacket with no waistcoat, with a waistbelt only. I didn't realise how common that was, because the places selling Evening jackets always sell them with waistcoats.

Yes I know wearing a cummerbund with a kilt isn't in line with traditional Highland Dress, but my motive was to match in with the wedding as well as I could while kilted.

[Jock Scot]

This thread has been very interesting, as I see that amongst Highland men it's very common to wear an Evening jacket with no waistcoat, with a waistbelt only. I didn't realise how common that was, because the places selling Evening jackets always sell them with waistcoats.

Yes I know wearing a cummerbund with a kilt isn't in line with traditional Highland Dress, but my motive was to match in with the wedding as well as I could while kilted.

I am not trying to be obtuse, or contentious, I am just trying to understand, but why are you trying to "...match in with the wedding..."? You are already standing out from the crowd, how is a cummerbund, or any other form of "camouflage", going to tone down your appearance? Why should you even want to match any one? None of the wedding guests will want to "match" you, surely? They have their own wedding attire that is probably an entirely different style altogether.

I fully accept that what we wear is entirely a choice that we all have and I am not for one second criticising what you are wearing.