Commonwealth of Nations

[plaid preacher]

And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.[/i]

Pie before breakfast! I may be proudly Canadian .... but I could become a Yankee any day. :-)

[plaid preacher]

Okay gonna stick my neck out on this one, as I don't have any history books at hand; but as I recall ...
the idea of "Great Britain" and the Union flag arose out of the ascension of James I and VI to the throne of England; and the subsequent great excitement (especially in Whitehall) with the idea of a united monarchy over all of the British Isles.

...but I'm sure someone else will correct me on that.

[Father Bill]

Pie before breakfast! I may be proudly Canadian .... but I could become a Yankee any day. :-)

Breakfast customs are just that - customs. What is eaten in Scotland for breakfast (not to mention Germany!) would horrify many north Americans, as would the paucity of our intake at that important meal. In France, on the other hand, it's difficult to get a robust breakfast such as the Scots and Germans (and I) enjoy. We tend to be horrified not really at the food, but at the difference of custom.

This discussion of the Commonwealth is now officially off-topic (and I know, I'm not helping!) but to steer it a wee bit back, I wonder what the different Commonwealth customs are in this regard, and how they evolved as the "Empire" (now Commonwealth+) spread about the globe.

[plaid preacher]

I'm curious to understand the purpose of the Commonwealth of Nations. I understand the origins of the Commonwealth come from Britain's former Empire whereas many of the members of the Commonwealth are territories which had historically come under British rule at various times by settlement, conquest or cession. However, I don't see how the Commonwealth relates to the established independent governments of its members. And, I believe the Queen of England is at the head of the Commonwealth? Does the Commonwealth perform more in ceremony of its past relationships or possibly serve as a conduit for trade among countries or ....

As to the question of the relationship of "independent governments" and the Commonwealth, there are many associations that involve sovereign countries i.e. the UN, NATO, the OAS and the G-8, just to name a few. At the heart of all these organizations is the understanding that representation in such bodies and organizations allows like-minded states which common interests to work together for a larger good. (okay, that may be a little too idealistic, but that's just me) With the Commonwealth, there is simply that added element of a common association with the Crown.

The Commonwealth is more than ceremonial, however. They have banded together to influence South Africa to end apartheid, and have called for more democratic and human rights in places such as Nigeria (in the 1990s) and more recent in Zimbabwe. While it is more moral suasion than anything else, it does continue and promote the ideals of human and democratic rights.

[tundramanq]

Our little side excursions help to "peek under the bonnet", see how it works and add more flavor or history to the topic at hand.
Just hard history facts slip away from my teflon memory without the "why" aspect. I have learned a lot today. Thank you much!

[McClef]

Okay gonna stick my neck out on this one, as I don't have any history books at hand; but as I recall ...
the idea of "Great Britain" and the Union flag arose out of the ascension of James I and VI to the throne of England; and the subsequent great excitement (especially in Whitehall) with the idea of a united monarchy over all of the British Isles.

...but I'm sure someone else will correct me on that.

The Union of the Crowns (1603) was a personal thing in terms of the person of the Monarch as the two countries remained totally independent with their own Parliaments for just over 100 years. In Scotland James remained purely known as James VI and in England purely as James I as England had never previously had a King named James.

The Union of the Parliaments, which led to the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and the transfer of its powers to London took place in 1707 under Queen Anne, James' Great Granddaughter. As there had been no previous Anne in either kingdom the numbering was not needed and indeed will not be unless we end up with a second Queen Anne at some stage.

The reasons for 1707 are open to some debate but it was then that the Saltire was added to the flag. Scotland was sometimes referred to as "North Britain" from that time also.

Even in 1603 though James became not only King of England but also of Wales and Ireland which came with the English throne as well.

The first Commonwealth came under Oliver Cromwell as an attempt to replace the Monarchy but it failed miserably and the Scots were the first to proclaim Charles II only a few days after his father's execution and indeed they crowned him at Scone on January 1st 1651.

Ireland kept its own Parliament until 1801 when they also were merged into the Westminster one.

Hope this displays the difference between the two events a little more.

[Peter Crowe]

The Union of the Crowns (1603) was a personal thing in terms of the person of the Monarch as the two countries remained totally independent with their own Parliaments for just over 100 years. In Scotland James remained purely known as James VI and in England purely as James I as England had never previously had a King named James.

The Union of the Parliaments, which led to the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and the transfer of its powers to London took place in 1707 under Queen Anne, James' Great Granddaughter. As there had been no previous Anne in either kingdom the numbering was not needed and indeed will not be unless we end up with a second Queen Anne at some stage.

The reasons for 1707 are open to some debate but it was then that the Saltire was added to the flag. Scotland was sometimes referred to as "North Britain" from that time also.

Even in 1603 though James became not only King of England but also of Wales and Ireland which came with the English throne as well.

The first Commonwealth came under Oliver Cromwell as an attempt to replace the Monarchy but it failed miserably and the Scots were the first to proclaim Charles II only a few days after his father's execution and indeed they crowned him at Scone on January 1st 1651.

Ireland kept its own Parliament until 1801 when they also were merged into the Westminster one.

Hope this displays the difference between the two events a little more.

You are of course correct Trefor in Constitutional terms.

However, James VI and I was personally in favour of a more complete Union between England and Scotland, and did often style himself as "King of Great Britain', although that entity did not yet legally (constitutionally) exist until 1707.

As to the Union Flag, A version of it was flown by warships of the Jacobean and Caroline (English) Royal Navy, but the Ensign remained the Red Ensign with the Cross of St. George in the canton. The 'Old Scots Navy' (Royal Scottish Navy pre-1707) flew a similar red ensign with the Saltire of St. Andrew in the canton. This ensign is being flown unofficially by some Scottish boat-owners in rceent years in place of the standard British Red Ensign. Ironically the Red Ensign of today's Merchant Navy was the senior of the Naval Ensigns, when the different squadrons of the RN flew red, white, or blue ensigns. ((Way of Topic-sorry)).

[McClef]

I will leave the flags to the vexillologists Peter

James, however, was not famous for his visits to Scotland after 1603, he only made one more visit between his accession in 1603 and death in 1625 which was in 1617.

Of course traveling was much more difficult in those days, but even so it's not an impressive statistic. Now of course the Queen is able to reach any part of the Commonwealth in a matter of hours or a day or two at the most. Communications then were dependent upon relays of horsemen and written letters. Not that long ago before the Internet, even an airmail letter to the USA could take up to three days.

It's kind of humbling to see what we have now compared with then.

[Silk]

I have to say that, as a new user, even though I was lurking and reading some of the other interesting posts on this site, this one made me register so I could comment. lol Ironically, I had just 2 or 3 days ago been posting facts about the Commonwealth to one of my Facebook pages.... reading and researching and writing out facts to regale my friends with (all of whom were totally uninterested! lol) All my time and no one there so much as liked or made a single comment so I thought I would like to at least comment here where people are interested in the subject!

So I just wanted to post a bit of what I learned so far:

Firstly, there are 54 member countries/states/territories at this time. The chart below shows each of these along with the year they became a member of the Commonwealth and their status as a Realm, Monarchy or Republic. Please note that the Commonwealth dates to 1931 and therefore those members who joined in 1931 are considered the senior or founding members of the Commonwealth (along with the United Kingdom who is at its centre of course.)




For every country listed as a "Realm"... The Queen is the official (symbolic) Head of State and the Queen of that country. Again, this is for symbolic purposes to honour history/tradition and her political role is completely under the direction/authority of that country's government. She is also not considered "foreign" in any of these countries just to state that as I have often seen comments made (not here but elsewhere) where she is called a "foreign monarch" (which she is not.) Ex. Canada, Australia, etc.

For every "Monarchy" listed.... that country has established its own monarchy and does not have the Queen as their monarch nor Head of State but does acknowledge the Queen as the Head of the Commonwealth (ex. Swaziland)

For every "Republic" listed... that country neither has the Queen as their monarch nor Head of State and has not chosen their own monarch either. They do, however, accept the Queen as Head of the Commonwealth. (Ex. This applies to a lot of the member countries from Africa.)

I research my information primarily from the monarchy's website and also an official Commonwealth website and I have more to share if there is any interest!