Gray Tartan

**Don Patrick** · 18th August 07, 10:52 AM

In a previous thread (one I can't seem to find). I was presenting a case that the Gray Family may be entitled to the use of the Stewart Tartan. One of my ancestors Lady Jane Grey (Gray) was deemed Queen of England for nine days. Another member pointed out to me it was not an official proclamation of a crowning - so I dropped my exploration.

I keep running into different sites which stipulate her as a Queen of England. Then today I came accross this site - where it shows the Gray Family entitled to wear the Stewart Tartan. http://www.scotclans.com/whats_my_cl...ns/g_list.html

What do you think - an error on their part?

**gilmore** · 18th August 07, 11:22 AM

Didn't Jane Grey, queen or not, die without issue?

**Riverkilt** · 18th August 07, 12:09 PM

Tartans by Air http://tartans.byair.net/ shows two Clan Gray tartans with some history as you mentioned.

Ron

**macwilkin** · 18th August 07, 05:47 PM

Hey, Don: don't forget we have a special section about heraldry & tartans where you can post a question like this!

Thanks,

Todd

**Archangel** · 18th August 07, 05:49 PM

Any "rules" about wearing a particular tartan are artificial. There are some courtesies but no "rules". The Romantic ideals are nice but they don't pertain to Scottish (or Celtic) Heraldry.

A lot of people confuse Scottish heraldry with English type heraldry. It's completely different, bloodlines play only a small part in it. Think more of it as an alliance structure, it's much more tribal. Heck, for the ancient Irish clans, a good singing voice was more important than blood when selecting a chief.

If you wish to identify with the Royal family, go for it. A lot of other people have. Nobody is going to confuse a wearer of a "Royal" tartan as a claimant to the throne. Especially if its a rather tenuous link to less than a fortnight's confusion that happened over 450 years ago.

So, was Lady Jane actually Queen for that time period? Yes, England is never without a monarch. That's why there is that strange phrase, "the King is dead, long live the King." There is always an ascendancy, the formality follows that. You can argue that she was the "Wrongful Queen" until the "Rightful Queen" was recognized a week or two later but she was still Queen. Again, don't confuse the structures of Monarch with democracy, there's a reason people wanted to get away from Monarchies.

I know this sounds harsh, and I really mean no offense, but the tartan is not legislated. It's your call what you want to wear. Courtesy and sense suggest that you should be aware of the identification and Her Majesty should appreciate you choosing to ally with her. I hope she accepts.

I like it when I see the various McGregor tartans being worn. I like it when I see the Maple Leaf tartan being worn. But that's all, no one has the "right" to forbid any more than the "right" to expect help in a fight (although, McMurdo, pitch right in, ha).

Quick disclaimer: some tartans are proprietary: the owners control the buying and selling. I don't know if they can control the wearing of them.

**McClef** · 19th August 07, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by gilmore

Didn't Jane Grey, queen or not, die without issue?

Yes she did.

**Don Patrick** · 19th August 07, 03:09 PM

I don't belive I'd feel comfortable wearing the tartan of a Clan without some sort of claim to that right.

Lineage is not my aim. I doubt I could easily prove lineage back to Lady Jane. Particularily with a name like Grey (Gray). It is a matter more in line with the guidance given by most, including the Standing Council of Clan Chiefs (I believe). If your family name is the name of a Clan or Sept, you can comfortably expect to wear the tartan of the that Clan.

Does the right of a Clan member to wear an entitled tartan end at some point. Is there something I'm missing?

**Archangel** · 19th August 07, 07:19 PM

I think you have a sense of "right" that doesn't really exist. It's really a tribal thing. I prefer to use that word since terms like "association", "identification", "membership" carry baggage. They suggest some kind of formality that simply doesn't exist.

There is no endpoint because there is no real start point.

So, here's the absolute authority on all these matters: The Court of the Lord Lyon. You'll note the clans (some of them) only have a say in the name of the tartan, not in who gets to wear them.

Something to thing about: only about a hundred recognized clans, over 2000 tartans.

**gilmore** · 19th August 07, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Don Patrick

I don't belive I'd feel comfortable wearing the tartan of a Clan without some sort of claim to that right.

Lineage is not my aim. I doubt I could easily prove lineage back to Lady Jane. Particularily with a name like Grey (Gray). It is a matter more in line with the guidance given by most, including the Standing Council of Clan Chiefs (I believe). If your family name is the name of a Clan or Sept, you can comfortably expect to wear the tartan of the that Clan.

Does the right of a Clan member to wear an entitled tartan end at some point. Is there something I'm missing?

I think it would be more acurate to say that is not a matter of rights and entitlements, but of appropriateness and tastefulness. There is no law against wearing nothing but a hot pink thong to a funeral, but few would do so.

BTW Jane Grey died in 1553, having been queen of England for 9 days in 1552. James Stuart VI and I didn't become king of England until 1603. It was only then that the Stuart dynasty ruled in both kingdoms. They were related through the Tudors, not the Stuarts, as far as I know. (Jane was the great granddaughter of Henry VII of England, while James V and I was his great great grandson, thus they were second cousins once removed.) I don't see a familial tartan connection. However, I am sure some will say that there were no tartan police in the 1500's, and Jane Grey could wear any damn tartan she wanted to. Was there even a Stuart tartan then?

**Phil** · 20th August 07, 01:24 AM

They say if you go back far enough everybody will find they are related to royalty in some way or another. They spread it about a lot in those days (and no doubt still do) but I wouldn't put too much reliance on a connection just because the surname is similar. I have been doing a bit of genealogy and found that what seems to be the case almost never is and you can only ever rely on hard documentary evidence. Everything else is just simply unreliable and there is little, if any, documentary evidence relating to the general population before the 19th century other than some church records. As to tartans, in Lady Jane Grey's time tartan-wearing was about as likely to be met in London as men from the moon and probably even less thought about.