Lions in Scotland??

[Riverkilt]

So I'm pondering the name of the Scottish Lion catalog. Then got to wondering how lions became part of Scottish heraldry.

I'm no biologist but I don't think lions ever roamed free in Scotland. And I don't recall any big market for ancient Scots going on African safaris to hunt lions.

How did the Scots even know about lions? Did the invading Romans bring them along?

Just curious...seems kind of like having a Native Alaskan flag or crest with a palm tree on it.

Enlightenment appreciated.

Ron

[macwilkin]

So I'm pondering the name of the Scottish Lion catalog. Then got to wondering how lions became part of Scottish heraldry.

I'm no biologist but I don't think lions ever roamed free in Scotland. And I don't recall any big market for ancient Scots going on African safaris to hunt lions.

How did the Scots even know about lions? Did the invading Romans bring them along?

Just curious...seems kind of like having a Native Alaskan flag or crest with a palm tree on it.

Enlightenment appreciated.

Ron

That's easy -- King William I, The "Lion of Scotland":

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page112.asp

http://www.rampantscotland.com/famou...illiamlion.htm

Regards,

Todd

[Riverkilt]

Okay, cool...but how does a 12th Century dude in Scotland know what a lion is? Even if he went on a Crusade he wouldn't have been in lion country.

Its not like he ever saw one (??) maybe just heard about them and they were something neat for him?

One would think they'd use something local, like a salmon.

Richard the Salmonhearted....

We Macdonalds have salmon on our crest I think...or one of them.

But anyhow. How would William I have encountered a lion to get the idea to add to the crest back then?

Thanks

Ron

[macwilkin]

Okay, cool...but how does a 12th Century dude in Scotland know what a lion is? Even if he went on a Crusade he wouldn't have been in lion country.

Its not like he ever saw one (??) maybe just heard about them and they were something neat for him?

One would think they'd use something local, like a salmon.

Richard the Salmonhearted....

We Macdonalds have salmon on our crest I think...or one of them.

But anyhow. How would William I have encountered a lion to get the idea to add to the crest back then?

Thanks

Ron

Lions are a common creature in heraldry, Ron -- one of the articles above mentioned that William's arms were most likely based on the arms of England.

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast78.htm

Hopefully this article will answer some of your questions.

T.

[Riverkilt]

I can see where William I would be aware of lions....just as Alaskan Natives may be aware of palm trees.

I can see why he'd adopt the lion for heraldry.

But what are the odds that he ever saw a real live lion eyeball to eyeball?

Did the equivalent of today's circus tour. Did William I travel to where he might see a lion in a zoo-type situation? Did he roam Africa or Asia in Lion Country?

Ron

[Ozman1944]

Don't forget there is a lot of Lion imagery in the Bible. Sampson & the lion, "Lion of Judah" etc.
North Africa was once a big Christian center, Crusaders, knights & pilgrims to the Holy land could've seen lions on their travels.

[gilmore]

I doubt that anyone in Britain ever saw a dragon or a gryphon, but there they are as heraldric beasts.

[macwilkin]

I doubt that anyone in Britain ever saw a dragon or a gryphon, but there they are as heraldric beasts.

Exactly. The reason why beasts and other symbols are chosen in heraldry is for their symbolic attributes.

Our chief's crest is a Rampant Lion holding a dagger. I doubt anyone's seen a real lion doing that, but that doesn't take away the significance of the crest.

Look at it this way: many folks have used the double-headed eagle (the Byzantines, the Hapsburgs, etc.) to symbolize an Empire in the East and West. It's not about actually seeing a double-headed eagle.

Regards,

Todd

[James MacMillan]

Two things - There are also a lot of dragons used in shields and crests, and I don't think anyone ever saw one of those?

And didn't lions once roam through out Europe, not just Africa?

Let's ask one of the time travelers to find out for us.

[David Thornton]

Ah, Ron. I'll loan you anything out of my library you wish to read (I have over 200 books on African adventure, hunting and history) and I think you will be amazed at how many Scots contribute the the mapping, exploration and hunting in Africa. I am sure you don't know, but I hunt every three years or so with (distant) cousin Sandy McDonald in S Africa. His father Alex McDonald was a pioneer in game farming S Africa. Game farming gave the native game animals value and thus saved them from extinction at the hands of natives and pioneers who wanted to turn the entire country into farmland, which it is not suited for.

Now I'll not pretend for a moment that that explains your question, but I assure you Scots explorers did indeed pursue adventure in Africa.

Hmm, I'm going back next year to see my sister, I could arrange a really cool personal kilted tour of S Africa, any takers?

David