Tartan Etiquette

[English Bloke]

Thanks Jock. You are an understanding fellow.

Me a bit extravagant? You could say that...

The tartan in question incidentally was Dutch Friendship. It's not commonly available but I'm off on a jolly with some friends in Rotterdam soon and felt it appropriate.

My mate Dave was wearing a 16oz Isle of Skye. RSVPiper was also wearing a beautiful tweed IoS which is a particularly unusual Kilt in that it's not often y ... ... Jock? Jock! Wake up!

See what I mean?

[rondo]

I have one of Matt's excellent Kingussie Kilts in my clan tartan [Dunbar] but my favorite kilt is in US Navy Edzell tartan [USA Kilts]. I feel a much stronger connection to my military service than to my clan so I will probably get a full on tank in the Navy tartan. Perhaps in a Harris tweed.
Rondo

[SorenMacTavish]

Great topic. Now I pose a question to the rabble...what does one do when after having traced ancestry/genealogy and has found direct descent from more than 6 clans? Would it be bad form to wear any/all of them individually? Thanks in advance.

[Father Bill]

Not "bad form..." You're in the U.S. From comments here online, t's apparent to me that nobody there knows or cares. In the U.K. they'd possibly think you were weird & perhaps thoughtless. In Canada, folks either wouldn't know, or if they did, they'd just roll their eyes and snicker to themselves.

The question then, becomes not whether others care, but do you care about them?

Bad form? Etiquette? Consideration? Thoughtfulness? Your call; which of those is important to you?

For example, in my own case, I have clergy & hunting Sinclair. Tomorrow I'm being measured for a Sinclair modern. I'm a priest with Sinclair heritage, so I'm connected to all three. Nobody here asks much, but were I travelling to the U.K. I'd only take one lest people thought oddly of me.

Here's the thing: nobody would ever say anything but I for one care about what others think even more than what they say, after all, if they say something to me, I have a chance to explain it. When they say nothing, they leave with heaven knows what opinion of me, and yes, I do care what opinions folks have of me or if they're offended.

Do you care?

[SorenMacTavish]

Not "bad form..." You're in the U.S. From comments here online, t's apparent to me that nobody there knows or cares. In the U.K. they'd possibly think you were weird & perhaps thoughtless. In Canada, folks either wouldn't know, or if they did, they'd just roll their eyes and snicker to themselves.

The question then, becomes not whether others care, but do you care about them?

Bad form? Etiquette? Consideration? Thoughtfulness? Your call; which of those is important to you?

For example, in my own case, I have clergy & hunting Sinclair. Tomorrow I'm being measured for a Sinclair modern. I'm a priest with Sinclair heritage, so I'm connected to all three. Nobody here asks much, but were I travelling to the U.K. I'd only take one lest people thought oddly of me.

Here's the thing: nobody would ever say anything but I for one care about what others think even more than what they say, after all, if they say something to me, I have a chance to explain it. When they say nothing, they leave with heaven knows what opinion of me, and yes, I do care what opinions folks have of me or if they're offended.

Do you care?

Thank you Father Bill. I personally wouldn't wear all tartans representative of my lineage as that it would feel to me like I was playing "dress up". I would wear what pertains to me personally, which would be the MacTavish as that it is the closest clan I am descended from. I just figured I'd ask so that I had a more "community" perspective. Thanks again for your perspective Father Bill.

[MacLowlife]

McTavish,

When you speak of direct descent from multiple clans, I assume you mean that six of your great great grandfathers all came from different clans- or possibly that six of your great grandfathers and great grandmothers all came from different clans. I believe, strictly speaking, that you would wear the tartan of the clan with a direct male line- your father's father's, etc.

We have gotten pretty egalitarian in the US about matrilineal descent and that is a fine thing- after all, matrilineal descent is more easily verified than patrilineal, absent a DNA test. But clan tartans and "the right to wear them" (assuming you believe such a right exists) are inherited in the male line.

Like primogeniture, the old rules are strict, but simple. Either your father and his father and his father hail from Clan X or you don't really have a claim to that tartan. Not your grandmother, not your grandfather's mother, not the name of your dog, favorite eatery, or the play you were in back in college. As has been said above, you may wear what you like. I believe Father bill has said it nicely, as have others, here and elsewhere. You may affiliate with clan associations or ask permission of chiefs or just stare down people who question you. But if you want to follow the rule, the rule is simple. Grafting other ideas onto the rule is what complicates things.

Now there is a distinct possibility that your father's father's father is not among those six lines that you can claim. While the strict interpretation says "No Tartan for you, Mac," I believe the liberal interpretation would be to choose the tartan next closest, that is, the one with the most recent male ancestor. If you can't make that work, then go with the one that matches your eyes.

[SorenMacTavish]

McTavish,

When you speak of direct descent from multiple clans, I assume you mean that six of your great great grandfathers all came from different clans- or possibly that six of your great grandfathers and great grandmothers all came from different clans. I believe, strictly speaking, that you would wear the tartan of the clan with a direct male line- your father's father's, etc.

We have gotten pretty egalitarian in the US about matrilineal descent and that is a fine thing- after all, matrilineal descent is more easily verified than patrilineal, absent a DNA test. But clan tartans and "the right to wear them" (assuming you believe such a right exists) are inherited in the male line.

Like primogeniture, the old rules are strict, but simple. Either your father and his father and his father hail from Clan X or you don't really have a claim to that tartan. Not your grandmother, not your grandfather's mother, not the name of your dog, favorite eatery, or the play you were in back in college. As has been said above, you may wear what you like. I believe Father bill has said it nicely, as have others, here and elsewhere. You may affiliate with clan associations or ask permission of chiefs or just stare down people who question you. But if you want to follow the rule, the rule is simple. Grafting other ideas onto the rule is what complicates things.

Now there is a distinct possibility that your father's father's father is not among those six lines that you can claim. While the strict interpretation says "No Tartan for you, Mac," I believe the liberal interpretation would be to choose the tartan next closest, that is, the one with the most recent male ancestor. If you can't make that work, then go with the one that matches your eyes.

Again, thanks for the feedback MacLowlife. As to the 6 clans+, they are all traced through my father's side of the family (IE, his father and mother, their parents and their parents) I wasn't sure if the lineage for clan tartan is traced through the matrilineal or patrilineal, so many thanks to those of you who have informed me and educated me to tradition. Given my father is a Stephenson (which I believe is a clan sept of MacTavish) that is the clan tartan I "should" wear if I follow tradition. So, Stephenson or MacTavish would be proper is my understanding, however I just wanted to be sure of that fact, hence my posing the question. Thanks again for the feedback MacLowlife.

[Geoff Withnell]

Forgive an ignorant yank, but I thought, if the clan chief says you are a member of a clan, then you are, and would therefore be completely proper and correct wearing the clan tartan.


(emphasis added)

McTavish,

... Like primogeniture, the old rules are strict, but simple. Either your father and his father and his father hail from Clan X or you don't really have a claim to that tartan. Not your grandmother, not your grandfather's mother, not the name of your dog, favorite eatery, or the play you were in back in college. As has been said above, you may wear what you like. I believe Father bill has said it nicely, as have others, here and elsewhere. You may affiliate with clan associations or ask permission of chiefs or just stare down people who question you. But if you want to follow the rule, the rule is simple. Grafting other ideas onto the rule is what complicates things.

....

[MacLowlife]

Geoff, I am not innocent- sorry- and, coming from SC, "yank" has other connotations, but I appreciate your point, which is entirely correct. The point I was trying to make is that we choose tartan and justify our choices in many ways. I personally believe some of those ways are silly (as exemplified in 'the name of your dog') and of course, some of them are indisputable, as in asking permission of a chief or joining a clan. But where does that lead the uninitiated and unaffiliated? Well, it leads them back to deciding which clan to ask to join!

Clans have meant different things at different times. I know many people feel strong ties to their clans- possibly as strong as the ties of warriors of old. But in many cases, those strongly linked clan members have relatives who think they are nuts. Because they spend so much energy on something that means nothing at all to the similarly- connected relatives.

This thread has been a good place to talk about affiliation, both inherited and voluntary. A couple of good examples have come up of the commercialism of what we might call Tartan Loyalty and also its romantic, heartfelt aspects. We are doomed to bounce back and forth, between heritage and modernity, between being exploited and following our hearts, between tradition and the freedom of the New World. And now and then, we are handed a good story, not necessarily true, but a good story. Synthesizing all of that is sometimes difficult- it is often easier to choose a side and ignore those who disagree. But I think the whole picture is valuable and useful.

[BBNC]

We must remind ourselves of Jock's quote: "Let us not take ourselves too seriously"- Queen Elizabeth 11.

There will always be some who will look at others askance, and offer un-asked for advice, based upon how they personally feel about certain things. I might ask someone what the tartan they are wearing is, but would not presume to say they shouldn't wear it, especially when they are from a different culture (US vs. UK for example). There has been much written on here about the clan/tartan relationship and how relatively recently most of it came about. If I were in Scotland and saw a Scot wearing a kilt, I would assume he was correct according to his culture. An out-lander can show respect for another's culture without pointedly copying it.