Tartan Etiquette

[Manxstralian]

I think that you chaps "over there" need to remember the we "over here" have roots too, and those roots are often not pure Scots. So what you chaps seek is nothing new. We "over here" just don't seem to make a song and dance over it.

Now to try to add a wee touch of light hearted-ness to my "dreaded two hour tartan justification lecture" comment, let me recount what happened to me a few days ago.

There I was taking a wee stroll, kilted, on a deserted single track road and a car passes carefully and disappears round the corner. On I go and lo and behold there the car is parked with its occupants taking in the view------I have to admit it is pretty damn good------ as I approach we bid each other good day and the conversation starts with a middle aged American couple from New York festooned with tartan. "Are you Scottish?" they ask. "Oh lord" think I, "ambushed!" "Yes." I reply. "You don't sound Scottish" came a good natured reply. They were right, I don't! And on the very pleasent conversation went.

Some two hours later we parted company and what were we discussing? Tartan! Long lost but some dimly remembered family Scottish history gathered together from relations spread all over America and Canada and so on. These were charming people who obviousely wanted to find their roots and good luck to them! This type of conversation is just the latest of this kind that I have had many times over the years. Harmless, sometimes interesting conversations with nice people and oh so time consuming, but I have usually never begrudged the time.

BUT------- and this is the bit that I fail to grasp. I have Norman roots, but I dont ride off the ferry at Caen on a bycycle, wearing a berret, wasp shirt with a string of onions around my neck. I have Australian roots, but I dont get off the plane at Sydney wearing a slouch hat with a boomerang tucked into my belt. I have, Dutch ancestors, but I don't wear cloggs to Holland. I have German connections, but do I wear leather shorts around Berlin? No. I have English genes, but I don't cross the border at Carlisle wearing a bowler hat. So why is it that visitors to Scotland wear tartan hats, tartan scarves, tartan ties, tartan socks, tartan coats, and carry tartan bags and tartan umbrellas? Not neccessarily all at the same time I might add! Alright, I exaggerate a tad, but I do wonder sometimes what our visitors think they are coming too----a theme park?--------and I do wonder what memories they take away with them? Are they satisfied? Disappointed? Are their ancestral needs satisfied? Paricularly when most do not appear to even know which part of Scotland they hail from? I do wonder sometimes and thus far, I am still rather mystified by it all.

Perhaps (as it seems to me at least), roots in Europe are less of an importance for Europeans, where as roots transplanted are transplanted into shallower soil. History here is not the same as history there, simply due to the timeframe.

I have only once stood on land and been able to think "this is where my ancestors came from" and even then, just for a few days. To be steeped in history, and in your ancestry must be a powerful thing, but it doesn't translate to the Antipodes.

Cheers,

Cameron

[English Bloke]

... I have only once stood on land and been able to think "this is where my ancestors came from" and even then, just for a few days. To be steeped in history, and in your ancestry must be a powerful thing, but it doesn't translate to the Antipodes ...

I have a relative (ancestor if you will) from my Dad's side. He was born near where my Dad was born in South Yorkshire in 1888 (a bit before me Dad I'll grant you.) and emigrated to Australia (alone) sometime between 1901 and 1911 (records are scant) He enlisted into the AIF in Melbourne in 1915 and after suffering wounds at Galipoli, was later killed at Passchendaele (3rd Ypres) in 1917. He lies in Belgium, in Tyne Cot Cemetery, under a 'Rising Sun' hat badge.



I have found out all I can about the man and his arm of our family. I've even given my daughter his name as a middle name (it's one of those names... It's not like he was called Trevor...)

I would dearly love to take a trip to Melbourne and walk in more of his footsteps, so I guess it can translate to the Antipodes, depending on the circumstances.

Edit: Not sure when this trip to Aus will occur. Unfortunately I wouldn't be allowed to go alone and would have to bring the rest of my Tribe, which would be prohibitively expensive. But we shall see, maybe one day.

[Antipodean Celt]

Edit: Not sure when this trip to Aus will occur. Unfortunately I wouldn't be allowed to go alone and would have to bring the rest of my Tribe, which would be prohibitively expensive. But we shall see, maybe one day.

Whenever you decide to come to Orstralya EB, you will be assured of a warm welcome from the Aussie XMTS members. Just let us know when you make the plunge!

[Father Bill]

Jock, many of us have tried (pouring our hearts on our sleeves for your benefit with great personal pain) to explain this to you, and I respectfully understand that you don't. (Understand, that is.) I really, really don't want to get into it deeply because it's all quite upsetting and emotional.

You have however, not only raised the topic again, but have given a clue that might be useful to me in once again trying to explain this to you and I offer this simply because it might help you to overcome your confusion with us "colonials": You say you aren't interested in your Norman roots, possibly because they're too distant. To you it's a passing oddity. Well, many of us here aren't as interested in our North American roots as those further and farther away... because they're too shallow, only a generation or so, and in some cases, not even that. Roots are, to the individual, what they feel.

I'm delighted that you can take pleasure in your Scottish connection, but please recognize kindly the feelings and emotions of those whose pleasure is in an unsure, misty, or different connection to a place other than where they live. When they don't even know with certainty what that place is, you must concede that it could be a confusing and unsettling set of feelings for them.

My personal very mixed metaphor: I love Canadian cuisine, but I'm delighted that my wife is European born and cooks marvellous European cuisine because my upbringing was with meals cooked by a surprisingly (especially for her day!) multi-cultural British mother, cooking for my European father. The parallel: I am a fiercely proud Canadian and love my culture, but I also love the "scent" of my distant cultural roots, and not just the cuisine. I long to taste that culture as much as the cuisine, a culture that in so many ways seems lost to me.

Meanwhile, I barbecue steaks Canadian style and enjoy them fiercely... but I also love a good haggis when I can get it. Yes, I'm Canadian, through and through, but I also enjoy the stories, the cuisine, the history, and the dress of my not really so very distant ancestors on both sides of my family, which, except for greater Europe as a common anchor could not be more different.

Many (dare I say most?) Canadians cleave strongly to that particular habit as part of Canadian culture - to know our roots. As I have pointed out previously, that is even Government policy and law.

I moved to this street last November when the bishop moved me back to London. To date I have met neighbours of no less than eight extremely distinct national backgrounds of the ten neighbours whose background I can identify. Living in the United Nations as it were, guess what we talk about! It's our roots, differences, and similarities of course.

Living in a more unified and identifiable culture, of course you don't talk about it much. We do, and it becomes emotionally important and sensitive to many of us.

Let's let it drop.

[Jock Scot]

Actually Bill, once again you appear determined to misunderstand what I am saying, not only that, you are putting words into my mouth and that is not helpful. I have never said that I am not interested in my Norman roots, I most definately am and all of my roots. You are trying to make an issue out of something that I certainly dont intend. All I have pointed out quite nicely that it is the degree and "volume" of knowing about our ancestors that noticably differs from those outwith Scotland.Nothing more.

[Father Bill]

What a sad and disappointing response to a heartfelt attempt to be helpful.

[Antipodean Celt]

Actually Bill, once again you appear determined to misunderstand what I am saying, not only that, you are putting words into my mouth and that is not helpful. I have never said that I am not interested in my Norman roots, I most definately am and all of my roots. You are trying to make an issue out of something that I certainly dont intend. All I have pointed out quite nicely that it is the degree and "volume" of knowing about our ancestors that noticably differs from those outwith Scotland.Nothing more.

Gents, if I may. I think all many posters are saying in response to your observation Jock (which i think is a correct observation) is that intensity of feeling about one's origins generally increases in proportion to remoteness from origins, both in distance and in time. I don't think that is at all surprising. I also think it is entirely human and is not solely the province of people with highland Scottish ancestry. I think Father Bill is simply disappointed that you do not seem to understand that. Does that assist?

[Jock Scot]

Gents, if I may. I think all many posters are saying in response to your observation Jock (which i think is a correct observation) is that intensity of feeling about one's origins generally increases in proportion to remoteness from origins, both in distance and in time. I don't think that is at all surprising. I also think it is entirely human and is not solely the province of people with highland Scottish ancestry. I think Father Bill is simply disappointed that you do not seem to understand that. Does that assist?

I would have thought that my(true) story of my very pleasant chat with two New Yorkers posted today in this thread demonstrates perfectly that I do very much uderstand the enthusiasm------ as a matter of the fact that it exists---- of those outwith Scotland about their ancestry. But perhaps Bill failed to see it?

[Jock Scot]

Perhaps (as it seems to me at least), roots in Europe are less of an importance for Europeans, where as roots transplanted are transplanted into shallower soil. History here is not the same as history there, simply due to the timeframe.

I have only once stood on land and been able to think "this is where my ancestors came from" and even then, just for a few days. To be steeped in history, and in your ancestry must be a powerful thing, but it doesn't translate to the Antipodes.

Cheers,

Cameron

In my distant youth I was ploughing fields at Gommecourt in Northern France. Somewhere in those very fields lies a relative of mine who amongst so many others has no known grave that were killed there on July 1st 1916. Now that was a twist of circumstance and really gave one a strange feeling!

[Antipodean Celt]

Perhaps (as it seems to me at least), roots in Europe are less of an importance for Europeans, where as roots transplanted are transplanted into shallower soil. History here is not the same as history there, simply due to the timeframe.

I have only once stood on land and been able to think "this is where my ancestors came from" and even then, just for a few days. To be steeped in history, and in your ancestry must be a powerful thing, but it doesn't translate to the Antipodes.

Cheers,

Cameron

I know exactly what you mean Cameron. Australia is an ancient land, and I can sense it sometimes, particularly in the landscape. But our human institutions and culture are entirely transplanted from Europe and my people have been here for a mere blink of an eye compared to the indigenous people. My home is about 100 years old and that is old for Brisbane. To stand on European soil in front of a cathedral that has stood for more than 1000 years blows my little antipodean mind.