Why Might A Clan NOT Have A Tartan?

[figheadair]

A historical question: What reasons might there be for a clan NOT having their own tartan? They annoyed the tartan-maker? Didn't get the memo? They decided it was just a fad?

The answer is simple. Historically i.e. pre-1800ish there were no such thing as a clan tartan.

I believe it is the proper Highland tradition for a woman who marries into another clan, to then wear her husbands tartan and clan badge.

That's very much a late C19th/C20th 'traditon'.

[OC Richard]

The answer is simple. Historically i.e. pre-1800ish there were no such thing as a clan tartan.

Beat me to it! Exactly what I was going to say... traditionally NO clan had a "clan tartan"! The entire concept of the fabric's pattern having group significance is relatively modern. When the concept emerged old nameless tartans found themselves suddenly bearing clan names, and new pseudo-traditional tartans were created to fill the perceived need, and many found themselves (whatever their true origin) being given the stamp of approval by the Chiefs.

[McElmurry]

Beat me to it! Exactly what I was going to say... traditionally NO clan had a "clan tartan"! The entire concept of the fabric's pattern having group significance is relatively modern. When the concept emerged old nameless tartans found themselves suddenly bearing clan names, and new pseudo-traditional tartans were created to fill the perceived need, and many found themselves (whatever their true origin) being given the stamp of approval by the Chiefs.

Once a symbol is decades old the provenience of the symbol becomes less important to the group. It is simply their symbol to them. The Saltire flag has been around since before the 16th century but the Tricolor was only recognized in 1916. Does that mean the Tricolor is less meaningful to the Irish than the Saltire is to the Scots? I think not.

I personally enjoy posts by those who point out the historical facts and I prefer to know what is fact and what is legend. But in the end if someone's Nana said tartan x is the family tartan then no logical argument is likely to change their mind nor reduce their feelings for the family tartan.

You can't logic someone out of a strongly held belief they were not logic'd into.

[TheOfficialBren]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

[Grizzly]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

The legend of the Saltire -

Believed to be the oldest flag in Europe, the origin of the flag comes from an old legend. Tradition has it that the flag originated in a battle fought near the East Lothian village of Athelstaneford in AD 832.

An army of Picts and Scots under King Angus invaded the Lothians (at that time still Northumbrian territory), and found itself surrounded by a larger force of Saxons led by Athelstan. Fearing the outcome, King Angus led prayers for deliverance and was rewarded by seeing a cloud formation of a white Saltire against the blue sky.

The king vowed that if, with the saint’s help, he gained victory, then Andrew would thereafter be the patron saint of Scotland. The Scots did win, and the Saltire eventually became the flag of Scotland.

In 2003 the Scottish Parliament specified the official colour of the flag using the international colour coding system and it was decided that the white St Andrew's Cross should appear on an azure background known as Pantone 300.

Along with the royal flag, the Lion Rampant, the Saltire can be seen flying with gusto in the crowds of international sporting events, on churches and on national and local government offices.

[TheOfficialBren]

The legend of the Saltire -

Believed to be the oldest flag in Europe, the origin of the flag comes from an old legend. Tradition has it that the flag originated in a battle fought near the East Lothian village of Athelstaneford in AD 832.

An army of Picts and Scots under King Angus invaded the Lothians (at that time still Northumbrian territory), and found itself surrounded by a larger force of Saxons led by Athelstan. Fearing the outcome, King Angus led prayers for deliverance and was rewarded by seeing a cloud formation of a white Saltire against the blue sky.

The king vowed that if, with the saint’s help, he gained victory, then Andrew would thereafter be the patron saint of Scotland. The Scots did win, and the Saltire eventually became the flag of Scotland.

In 2003 the Scottish Parliament specified the official colour of the flag using the international colour coding system and it was decided that the white St Andrew's Cross should appear on an azure background known as Pantone 300.

Along with the royal flag, the Lion Rampant, the Saltire can be seen flying with gusto in the crowds of international sporting events, on churches and on national and local government offices.

Well, there you go. Taken with a very large pinch of salt it still seems to be older than the 1500s. Legends aren't always complete fact but they aren't always fiction. That's the difference between a legend and a myth. A myth is pure fantasy. A legend has some factual basis (even if it's a stretch).

[McElmurry]

McElmurry,

I believe that the Saltire of St. Andrews is much older. If I'm not mistaken it dates to the 9th or 10th century making it the oldest state flag still in use in the Western World. I may be wrong, though.

I edited my post and added "before"in front of "the 16th century" to account for reports the Saltire may have been used on a flag prior to 1503, the date I gleaned from Wikipedia. I guess I did say I was interested in historical facts and legends so I opened the door there.

Thanks for the info Grizzly I had not heard the legend about the flag possibly being used as early as AD 832.

[Grizzly]

Well I do think we need to take it with a large pinch of salt but in the absence of any other info it makes a good story. Perhaps one of our actual scottish scholars could shed some more light?

[Mike_Oettle]

The OfficialBREN wrote: “A myth is pure fantasy.”

According to the widely accepted definition, this is so. But ancient myths are more than mere fantasy.
The best definition I know of the word has it that a myth is the highest form of religious truth.
Many scholars nowadays accept that the accounts of creation (there are at least two distinct stories) in Genesis are myth.

But of course this is a digression and of no bearing on the current discussion.
Regards,
Mike

[TheOfficialBren]

I edited my post and added "before"in front of "the 16th century" to account for reports the Saltire may have been used on a flag prior to 1503, the date I gleaned from Wikipedia. I guess I did say I was interested in historical facts and legends so I opened the door there.

Thanks for the info Grizzly I had not heard the legend about the flag possibly being used as early as AD 832.

No worries, mate. I have wondered about this topic before.