Osprey Men-at-Arms (some kilt errors)

[James Hood]

As another most sincere fan of the Osprey series, Men At arms, Elite, Weapons, Warriors, Aircraft Of The Aces, Fortress, Duel...

...(meaning; several thousand dollars have been spent on Osprey subjects over several decades)...

...OC Richard puts forth some exceptionally pertinent and well explained points.

Students of military history are well advised to seek out and study the Osprey inexpensive, short, softcover tomes, which arguably cover a wider array of military history subjects than any other publisher or range, ever.

However, buyer and student beware, regarding them as primers on a subject, not truly authoritative works in most instances, is personally recommended.

Consulting other sources and other artists can reveal a much larger picture of in this instance, Scottish soldiers. When at all possible, compare multiple pictures, drawings, photos of any uniform you are studying. Often the artist-at-the time was not really well versed in the subject, ergo a questionable depiction.

One thing to bear in mind; soldiers "then" and now are often quite different in size, mass, musculature. It has been said, the average infantryman in Wellington's army at Waterloo was five feet four (5' 4") and weighed 125 pounds.

Attending shows and museums where actual period militaria is displayed may leave you aghast at how small the (especially 19th century) soldiers were.

[OC Richard]

Attending shows and museums where actual period militaria is displayed may leave you aghast at how small the (especially 19th century) soldiers were.

Interesting that you should mention this, because I had always thought the same, and when I was out at a militaria show I met a fellow dressed in full ancient Roman legionnaire uniform, and noticing his height (more than a foot shorter than my 6'4") I commented that he appeared to be the proper size for a Roman soldier. He said that that was a common misconception; in fact a large number of Roman skeletons from Imperial times have been measured and these have revealed that the average Roman of those times is the same height as the average Roman of today.

I don't know if that's true! But this fellow seemed very knowledgeable and passionate about ancient Rome.

In my own family my grandfather was 6'4" and my great-great-grandfather's Civil War records show that he also was 6'4". My son is an inch or two shy of that but about his son (if he is to have one) who knows?

[Father Bill]

I remember taking my ten and eleven year olds on class trips to the museum and thinking how impossible it would be to cram them into the medieval suits of armour, so I would have to lean towards your original opinion.

[Hopper250]

OC Richard,

The Roman you met was correct. The average hight of men and women from 2-3000 years ago and today hasn't changed much. When looking at the armor that is on display in museums it is important to remember that most of that armor is doing what it has always done, been on display. Display armor would be made smaller and of lighter less expensive base material. Which allowed for ornate paterning and guilding. The average practical armor looked much like what Heath Ledger wore in "A Knights Tale." Solid, nothing fancy on it in any way, and lightly burnished.

[OC Richard]

About the height thing (which has become its own topic!) I was recently reading an anthropology book which said that when farming was invented there was a sudden decrease in height and life span and a deterioration in health in general: bad teeth, more disease, and so forth. The book went into much detail about the effect of people living in close quarters with each other and with farm animals, and how plagues became common (which were pretty much impossible in hunter-gatherer times when people were spread over a vast landscape in small isolated bands). Also new were famines, which were the result of depending on just a small handful of crops and animals, whereas typical hunter-gatherers ate over 100 different species regularly, meaning that if any one of them was wiped out by some new disease there would be little impact on the human diet. (Think the potato famine, where an entire nation was dependent on a single crop.)

[Father Bill]

OC Richard,

The Roman you met was correct. The average hight of men and women from 2-3000 years ago and today hasn't changed much. When looking at the armor that is on display in museums it is important to remember that most of that armor is doing what it has always done, been on display. Display armor would be made smaller and of lighter less expensive base material. Which allowed for ornate paterning and guilding. The average practical armor looked much like what Heath Ledger wore in "A Knights Tale." Solid, nothing fancy on it in any way, and lightly burnished.

Umm, not at the Royal Ontario Museum where the armour at that time was dented and labelled for who wore it. The mystery deepens!

[David Host]

Back to the inaccuracies of the Osprey books: I love them to death, but indeed they must be taken with a grain of salt (a fist sized grain when it comes to some of their medieval publications, especially the McBride illustrations).

[Farmer Jones]

I am not familiar with the Osprey books, but the subject of historical accuracy, especially with modern visual arts, such as cinema, has often interested me. A majority of people cannot get to places like V&A to see examples of real clothing from an era and must rely on illustrations. The pieces that get preserved tend to be display pieces and upper end fashions. So beyond contemporary illustrations and a few fashion items, the majority of people only see what is interpreted into modern visual art by costumers and illustrators. It takes intimate knowledge to take apart some illustrations and show to an uninformed person all of the licence taken by (and ignorance of ) the artist.

Societal prosperity has not been even throughout human history and while some places had plenty, at the same time others had little. I have personal experience of how war and famine lead to starvation and stunted growth. I also have travelled and seen that despite having enough food, some societies lack some nutrients and tend not to reach their genetic potential. I think the point about the size of soldiers from different societies at different points in history reflects much more their diet and lifestyle than it does any change in genetic potential of humans.