Clan tartan ties, unforgivable sin?

[Dollander]

First of all, even as a child I thought those "best and worst dressed" segments in gossip magazines (back before there was such a thing as a blog) were petty and arrogant. Fashion is ultimately an art form like any other, and art is and will always be subjective. Don LaFontaine never asked to see a script or rough cut before doing a trailer voiceover, because his philosophy was that every movie is someone's favorite movie. I may agree with the critic who found it disheartening that genuinely talented writers and directors can't get their movies funded while Deuce Bigelow II was "stinking up theaters", but I had a friend who was a fan of Rob Schneider and found that assessment somewhat offensive. Was I to think less of him for his taste in entertainment? It's not as if he ever insisted we watch a Rob Schneider marathon whenever we hung out, any more than I'd insist we listen to Bad Religion when I knew he couldn't stand them.

I guess it's just because I'm some uncultured dubyatee who never paid attention to the specifics of formal wear, but I happen to like the look. After all, it's considered perfectly fine to wear a long tie with a plain shirt, so why is it suddenly an eyesore when it's framed by the PC waistcoat at the bottom? Especially since it keeps with the above-mentioned separation principle. Indeed, the main reason I converted my Murray of Tullibardine tie into a makeshift day cravat was because I didn't like how it looked with the tie and kilt touching, and did not yet have a waistcoat to solve that problem. But I'd consider someone telling me that I can't wear a day cravat with a black Argyll jacket no different than telling Bad Religion that you can't mix Beatles-esque 3-part harmonies with hardcore punk...which again, my friend thought was cheesy while it's one of the main things I like about their music.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while some celebrities perhaps don't know what they're doing, others dress however they want simply because they can. I'm sure that plenty of us regular folks keep to the rules because that's what they like and what they think looks good, but no doubt others would probably take greater fashion risks if it didn't carry the possibility of losing their jobs, their social standing, etc. And while it seems some of you might equate Sir Sean's choice of attire with something as crass as Bruce Springsteen wearing a printed tuxedo t-shirt to the Grammys, notice that people didn't stop buying his albums because of it...and likewise it was Connery's bad role choices that ended his acting career, not his questionable interpretation of traditional kilt attire (turned down Lord of the Rings and then did League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; 'nuff said).

Oh, and I just have to get this off my chest. I think the whole "looks like a rental" assessment I see all too frequently on this forum is nothing short of arrogant. To me it says, ugh, look at that peasant who can't even afford to justify spending a thousand dollars on an outfit that he might not even wear once a year. I mean, should we also we scoff at those who rent their tuxedos?

Okay, rant over. We now return to our regularly-scheduled discussion of whether tartan ties with kilts are acceptable, or will earn you an eternity of being force-fed Epcot Center haggis while listening to Rufus Harley...

[Terry Searl]

First of all, even as a child I thought those "best and worst dressed" segments in gossip magazines (back before there was such a thing as a blog) were petty and arrogant. Fashion is ultimately an art form like any other, and art is and will always be subjective. Don LaFontaine never asked to see a script or rough cut before doing a trailer voiceover, because his philosophy was that every movie is someone's favorite movie. I may agree with the critic who found it disheartening that genuinely talented writers and directors can't get their movies funded while Deuce Bigelow II was "stinking up theaters", but I had a friend who was a fan of Rob Schneider and found that assessment somewhat offensive. Was I to think less of him for his taste in entertainment? It's not as if he ever insisted we watch a Rob Schneider marathon whenever we hung out, any more than I'd insist we listen to Bad Religion when I knew he couldn't stand them.

I guess it's just because I'm just some uncultured dubyatee who never paid attention to the specifics of formal wear, but I happen to like the look. After all, it's considered perfectly fine to wear a long tie with a plain shirt, so why is it suddenly an eyesore when it's framed by the PC waistcoat at the bottom? Especially since it keeps with the above-mentioned separation principle. Indeed, the main reason I converted my Murray of Tullibardine tie into a makeshift day cravat was because I didn't like how it looked with the tie and kilt touching, and did not yet have a waistcoat to solve that problem. But I'd consider someone telling me that I can't wear a day cravat with a black Argyll jacket no different than telling Bad Religion that you can't mix Beatles-esque 3-part harmonies with hardcore punk...which again, my friend thought was cheesy while it's one of the main things I like about their music.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while some celebrities perhaps don't know what they're doing, others dress however they want simply because they can. I'm sure that plenty of us regular folks keep to the rules because that's what they like and what they think looks good, but no doubt others would probably take greater fashion risks if it didn't carry the possibility of losing their jobs, their social standing, etc. And while it seems some of you might equate Sir Sean's choice of attire with something as crass as Bruce Springsteen wearing a printed tuxedo t-shirt to the Grammys, notice that people didn't stop buying his albums because of it...and likewise it was Connery's bad role choices that ended his acting career, not his questionable interpretation of traditional kilt attire (turned down Lord of the Rings and then did League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; 'nuff said).

Oh, and I just have to get this off my chest. I think the whole "looks like a rental" assessment I see all too frequently on this forum is nothing short of arrogant. To me it says, ugh, look at that peasant who can't even afford to justify spending a thousand dollars on an outfit that he might not even wear once a year. I mean, should we also we scoff at those who rent their tuxedos?

Okay, rant over. We now return to our regularly-scheduled discussion of whether tartan ties with kilts are acceptable, or will earn you an eternity of being force-fed Epcot Center haggis while listening to Rufus Harley...

I love a good rant even if I don't agree with it......in this case I just love someone taking the time to express his opinion

[FossilHunter]

First of all, even as a child I thought those "best and worst dressed" segments in gossip magazines (back before there was such a thing as a blog) were petty and arrogant.

I am referring specifically to events like this here,

White Tie DO’s & DON’Ts – Tailcoat & Full Fig Guide

It shows a number of errors made by various actors in regards to their white tie outfits. Most of them are clearly no conscious fashion choices. Wearing a tuxedo jacket with a white tie seems a lot more like ignorance than a fashion statement to me. And if they just don't care I don't know why they bothered to go in the first place as that would seem to be a better protest.

The thing is that these people are all rich. They really don't have any excuse beyond the obvious reality that many of them are from modest backgrounds and don't know how to dress for the event. Expensive clothes worn poorly.

But again that's not an excuse as I imagine any of the expensive clothing stores in New York, or whatever big city they live in, would have been happy to set them up properly.

I guess it's just because I'm some uncultured dubyatee who never paid attention to the specifics of formal wear, but I happen to like the look. After all, it's considered perfectly fine to wear a long tie with a plain shirt, so why is it suddenly an eyesore when it's framed by the PC waistcoat at the bottom? Especially since it keeps with the above-mentioned separation principle. Indeed, the main reason I converted my Murray of Tullibardine tie into a makeshift day cravat was because I didn't like how it looked with the tie and kilt touching, and did not yet have a waistcoat to solve that problem. But I'd consider someone telling me that I can't wear a day cravat with a black Argyll jacket no different than telling Bad Religion that you can't mix Beatles-esque 3-part harmonies with hardcore punk...which again, my friend thought was cheesy while it's one of the main things I like about their music.

It has never been considered appropriate to wear a long tie with a tuxedo, which is the equivalent of a prince charlie. I admit doing it (albeit with a five button vest) at my highschool prom but it was because I was an ignorant teenager and the rental shop employees weren't much more knowledgeable.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, while some celebrities perhaps don't know what they're doing, others dress however they want simply because they can. I'm sure that plenty of us regular folks keep to the rules because that's what they like and what they think looks good, but no doubt others would probably take greater fashion risks if it didn't carry the possibility of losing their jobs, their social standing, etc. And while it seems some of you might equate Sir Sean's choice of attire with something as crass as Bruce Springsteen wearing a printed tuxedo t-shirt to the Grammys, notice that people didn't stop buying his albums because of it...and likewise it was Connery's bad role choices that ended his acting career, not his questionable interpretation of traditional kilt attire (turned down Lord of the Rings and then did League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; 'nuff said).

There's a difference between doing something because you can and doing it because you just don't know any better. I don't know why Springsteen chose a tuxedo t-shirt but I would guess that it was to make a statement and be a rebel. Mr. Connery is clearly making an attempt to dress well in the photo, he just misses the mark and to me it suggests not quite knowing what he is doing.

Oh, and I just have to get this off my chest. I think the whole "looks like a rental" assessment I see all too frequently on this forum is nothing short of arrogant. To me it says, ugh, look at that peasant who can't even afford to justify spending a thousand dollars on an outfit that he might not even wear once a year. I mean, should we also we scoff at those who rent their tuxedos?

I don't think anyone has said there is anything wrong with renting any article of clothing and if you think it indicates some form of classism or snobbery then you are welcome to your interpretation.

To me it indicates a number of things; generally a cookie cutter appearance, poor choice of formality for the time of day or event (prince charlies or tuxedos in the middle of the day), and sometimes poor fit (this may vary with the renter).

Many rental shops in the US don't even bother to help their clients with advice or recommendations.

I wore a tuxedo to my wedding, at 3pm, with a necktie. At the time I had no idea that this violated multiple conventions (not rules). Nobody at the shop gave me any kind of advice or warning for this if they were even aware of this themselves. It wasn't until a year or so later that I stumbled on the black tie guide website and realized what had happened.

It didn't ruin the day or anything and it's not as if I took down all my photos from the wedding but it did instill in me a desire to know as much as I can about the conventions of dressing well.

And if my experience taught me anything that I could offer as advice to others it would be to know the conventions of dressing, be it saxon or highland. Wearing what you like is not a bad thing at all, but I think a wise choice would always be to couch that decision in knowledge rather than ignorance.

[Tobus]

Fashion is ultimately an art form like any other, and art is and will always be subjective.

But it's important to note that "fashion" is not the same as "tradition". And I will concede that we're not in the traditional forum here, so we needn't frame the entirety of this conversation in that context. If we are talking about everyday clothing choices, a tartan tie with a kilt could be considered a fashion choice. Just so long as one knows it's purely a fashion choice that's a break from tradition. And let's be honest: the kilt is a traditional garment, despite all recent attempts to modernize it and make it popular or fashionable. When one wears a traditional garment in a non-traditional way, it is a fashion choice that may cause blank stares or whispers behind hands. One takes that risk when making a fashion statement.

At any rate, all this talk of fashion sort of fades into the background when it comes to formal wear or evening wear. That is the one place where tradition rules, regardless of whether we're talking about Highland dress or so-called Saxon dress. Breaking the traditions of evening wear makes one appear unmannered and uneducated. Is that arrogant? Well, yes. None of us here created those traditions or rules. But they do exist. Welcome to reality.

[Taskr]

Nothing wrong with a good rant, being respectable and respected in return for what it is. Such rants are good for the health of the ranter and often give pause to some listeners for reality checks.
I got two from reading that over a few times.

I particularly lean toward convention over fashion in my style with clothing. Formal jacket; formal tie. Convention continues to re-cycle itself quietly in whatever is being flaunted as new in any fashion season.

My first kilt worn was a rental while mine was being made (delayed, so rental being the same tartan it was borrowed for the event). Rentals are not inexpensive, so I don't consider "rental package" to be a comment on resources to purchase, rather the reflection of what rental shops are usually providing as their fashion over convention. In my case I wasn't PCd-up - and would have looked ridiculously out of place at the event if I had.

[Piobair]

Not sure where this notion of tartan ties with kilts being anomalous came from - it's not that unusual, although the practice has gone in and out of fashion. I used to see the combination frequently at games in the US, Canada, and Scotland in the 90s, and I think it was mentioned above that it was something of a trend in the 60s/70s. Personally I don't mind them, but it depends on the tartan.

The rental shop criticism is not intended as an insult. If anything, it's meant to indicate that the subject of the observation just looks unfamiliar with certain sartorial details that seasoned kilt wearers take for granted. Of course, plenty of people who own thousands of dollars or highlandwear are just as likely to make mistakes as the occasional kilt wearer. But by and large, hire shops these days don't do a great job of dressing customers. It hasn't always been the case - Sonny Liston looked great in a kilt, and I'm guessing his kilt was a rental for a Glasgow photo-op.

The notion of "tradition" in highlandwear is muddy at best, and gets tied up in ideas like "Highlandism" and "Celticism," concepts that aren't always supported by history. And what tradition are we talking about, anyway? The most wool many highlanders and islanders wore 100 years ago would have been a jumper and heavy trousers, maybe an army uniform. If we're referencing Culloden, we might as well be comparing a Saxon (ugh this term) suit with the doublets and breeches of 100 years ago. It's subjective. Yes, there are a bunch of old catalogs from the 30's showing guys in tweed or wearing powder horns and badger heads, but I'm not sure that those images are always indicative of what to wear today or how to wear it.

I've worn a kilt most of my life in all kinds of settings in the company of other kilt wearers of varying degrees of fussiness, both in the US and Scotland. So you can trust me when I say that many of the "rules" have to be taken with a grain of salt, as some of the people espousing them don't always get them right. There also tends to be a bit of the "zeal of the convert" in people who have come to kilt wearing later in life, and I find that they tend to be much more concerned about "getting it right." By and large I think it's safe to go with the commenters on this site who advocate pragmatism over romance and adopt a "less is more" view.

TL;DR: Wear a tartan tie if it doesn't look too out of place and everything else fits and sits correctly. You don't need to spend a ton of money, be the descendant of Rob Roy, or consult with an historian to get this stuff right.

But for God's sake, don't tie ghillie laces up to your knees.

[kingandrew]

Luke,

The outfit looks great. For some reason I always thought you looked like your clean-shaven avatar and thus didn't recognize you in the picture

Dollander,
I think it's great that you have put all this out there and expressed yourself so clearly. I have several thoughts in response:

1. I can totally see where you get a class snobbery vibe from ideas about what is "done" or not. However, I really don't think that is the crux of the issue to most on this forum. As Jock says, the man on a budget can't afford to buy items of poor taste or quality, since he won't be able to upgrade them for a long time. There is nothing wrong with renting, but there are some things that often come from rental shops that don't look too good. Sadly, most rental shops are much more focused on short-term profit than on advising customers on how to look their best so they become repeat customers. Of course the rental firms are in business and need to make a profit. But it surely would be no more expensive for them to offer helpful advice to their clients. And it is certainly quite possible to dress poorly in expensive clothes of one's own.

2. I am not a fan of white kilt hose, but I have a pair and have worn them at times. When I first started wearing the kilt, I read (I think in Thompson's "So You're Going to Wear the Kilt") that white was considered the preferred color for formal events. So I got some, in order to respect the formal conventions. It does make a sort of sense, as it goes with the fairly austere black/white palette of most formal wear (aside from our tartan kilts and plaids). As I've learned more, I've experimented with other colors and plan to get some argyle hose, as these look more formal to me. So our tastes will evolve and reading the posts on this forum can educate us to details we might otherwise overlook.

3. I don't know why Springsteen wore a tux t-shirt to the Grammies. I have little regard for the Grammy ceremony, but it would seem not going would be a more effective protest than dressing in a tacky and disrespectful manner. I love Springsteen's songwriting and recordings, but I would not be a customer of any "Boss Designer Wear" apparel he would offer. I feel the same way about the many clothing lines endorsed by talented musicians who are not talented clothing designers. Every "red carpet" photoessay shows many examples of rich and famous people who haven't bothered to learn the conventions of formal wear and unfortunately look sloppy or like "fashion victims" as a result.

4. I share your appreciation for Bad Religion and other punk rock artists. And I like to take risks and express myself in my appearance. But I think formal wear is one place where such options are pretty limited. After all, if it gets too innovative or outside the rules, it isn't formal any more. Frankly, wearing a kilt rather than a tuxedo to a formal event is about as innovative as is probably advisable. "Formal" and "uniform" share the same root, form, which means "shape." In both cases, following a specific set of guidelines is what creates the sense of everyone sharing the "form." Formalwear is the closest most civilians will get to a uniform.

5. I think that the members here are all looking to be more knowledgeable and skillful in their kilt-wearing. The comments presented are more about appreciating when this is done well or fine-tuning where it could perhaps be done better. The goal (I hope) is not to canonize a few and castigate everyone else. Rather, discussing and questioning what makes a great outfit great will help me learn how to better express myself in my own outfits and what to look for in items I add to my wardrobe. Understanding the details that make Jimi Hendrix or Mozart stand out so much can help me be a better musician and/or listener.

All that said, I think it is important for us to question why we have such strong opinions on some things and to avoid judging a person's deeper character based only on his or her attire. Oscar Wilde said (tongue-in-cheek), "A well-tied tie is the first serious step in life," but surely it is not the last or most important step.

Andrew

[Luke MacGillie]

Luke,

The outfit looks great. For some reason I always thought you looked like your clean-shaven avatar and thus didn't recognize you in the picture

Andrew

I keep a seasonal beard, once the public interpretation/reenacting season is done here, usually around the first weekend in October, I quit shaving till March, sometimes as late as July. Once, I took a couple years off of 18th Century reenacting and let it grow almost to the point of it being its own garment!

[kingandrew]

My own beard started as a seasonal idea: the male teachers at my school agreed to observe No-Shave November to raise awareness of men's cancers. At the end of the month, I was the only one who didn't look like a homeless guy. And then the school asked me to play Santa at the Christmas party, so I went another month without shaving.

At the end of December I asked my wife how she liked the beard. She really liked it and urged me to keep it. So I've had it since. I can say that not shaving certainly simplifies my life, although the mustache does require trimming on a nearly every day basis to keep my whiskers out of my food.

The garment-length bear would be well-suited to Civil War reenacting, if you're trying to balance your facial hair and living history pursuits

Andrew