I Joined my clan society

[Mike1]

My problem is with the statement "if you are interested in your family history I would say the first step to a larger world would be to join your clan society," which is quite unrealistic. The standard and accepted practice of genealogical research is starting with one's immediate family and working backward, generation by generation. Trying to take short cuts almost always leads to trouble at some point in the future. (The one exception is the possibility of DNA testing's being helpful.)

And you know if McMurdo has, in fact, started with his immediate family and worked backward, generation by generation, to discover his connection to the Grahams is quite real, then his statement would make a lot of sense. If the Clan Graham Society is, indeed, 'his clan society', then he has just uncovered an exciting new way to learn about his family.

Nor do I have problems with people joining clan societies. I once joined one myself. But face it, they are simply organizations for people who happen to bear the same surname, through accidents of birth and history.

No doubt joined on a drunken dare, eh?

For someone who is so insistent on careful research and study, you are certainly quick to group all clan societies under one umbrella. Although I would agree that most people are accidents of birth, although there will be those that were carefully planned out and conceived at just the precise moment specified.

My problem is with these claims and methodologies being taken seriously, passed on to those of us doing serious genealogical work, and wasting our time.

Ahhhh, so now I understand. You are a Graham descendant, yourself. And rather than asking how McMurdo came to his genealogical conclusions, you're just assuming he is wasting your time. Now I understand your motive. you're bound to lose years of research by taking the time to prove or disprove McMurdo's genealogy, aren't you?

If I wanted to be argumentative and puncture a few Brigadoonish fantasies, I would insist that the vast majority of Scots were Lowlanders descended from Anglo-Saxon-Jute Northumbrians who never spoke a word of Gaelic, were never part of the clan system, whose surnames were never associated with a clan, and looked down on the Highland clans as uncouth barbarians. But I wont.

That would not be argumentative, that would be historically accurate.

Spouting off about McMurdo's comments without having any proof or evidence of how extensively he has examined his own lineage? Now that was being argumentative. And you are finished being argumentative, aren't you? Begging your pardon, I just realized I phrased that as a question. Let me try again. You are finished being argumentative.

[gilmore]

And you know if McMurdo has, in fact, started with his immediate family and worked backward, generation by generation, to discover his connection to the Grahams is quite real, then his statement would make a lot of sense. If the Clan Graham Society is, indeed, 'his clan society', then he has just uncovered an exciting new way to learn about his family....

No doubt joined on a drunken dare, eh?

For someone who is so insistent on careful research and study, you are certainly quick to group all clan societies under one umbrella. Although I would agree that most people are accidents of birth, although there will be those that were carefully planned out and conceived at just the precise moment specified.

Ahhhh, so now I understand. You are a Graham descendant, yourself. And rather than asking how McMurdo came to his genealogical conclusions, you're just assuming he is wasting your time. Now I understand your motive. you're bound to lose years of research by taking the time to prove or disprove McMurdo's genealogy, aren't you?

That would not be argumentative, that would be historically accurate.

Spouting off about McMurdo's comments without having any proof or evidence of how extensively he has examined his own lineage? Now that was being argumentative. And you are finished being argumentative, aren't you? Begging your pardon, I just realized I phrased that as a question. Let me try again. You are finished being argumentative.

I didn't join the clan society in question on a drunken dare. I joined it through relying on unsound, ficticious information that a relative was fond of proclaiming as truth.

I am not concerned with McMurdo wasting my time. In fact I am happy for him. I am, however, greatly concerned generally with those who pass on unsound methodology and the information gained through it as if it were reliable. You see, the pool of genealogical information is relied upon by many researchers. If it is polluted, bad info is passed on and on, and it takes longer and longer to clear up. I feel that those of us who do genealogy have a responsibility to other researchers and to our families to exercise prudence and use the best methodologies we can.

My point is simply as you quoted it above: "My problem is with the statement "if you are interested in your family history I would say the first step to a larger world would be to join your clan society," which is quite unrealistic. The standard and accepted practice of genealogical research is starting with one's immediate family and working backward, generation by generation. Trying to take short cuts almost always leads to trouble at some point in the future. (The one exception is the possibility of DNA testing's being helpful.)"

[McMurdo]

My point is simply as you quoted it above: "My problem is with the statement "if you are interested in your family history I would say the first step to a larger world would be to join your clan society,"

Gilmore, Please read this again You are saying you have a problem with my opinion, read it again, I said "I would say" meaning it is my opinion, last time I checked I was still allowed my own opinion, now stop beating a dead horse, we all know how you feel.

I did not intend this post to be a pi$$ing contest, I was just very excited about joining up with my Clan society, and yes have no fear I have gone back through the people in my family and have joined the correct Clan Society. There have also been other members of my family who have done quite a bit of research on our history, I think every family has at least one my family has a few. I will send in my information to the society and see what they come up with.

[Monkey@Arms]

Spouting off about McMurdo's comments without having any proof or evidence of how extensively he has examined his own lineage? Now that was being argumentative. And you are finished being argumentative, aren't you? Begging your pardon, I just realized I phrased that as a question. Let me try again. You are finished being argumentative.

Actually, Gilmore didn't say anything about McMurdo's research or clan affiliation. He only gave an informed opinion about the advice in the first post about what a good "first step" about learning about your greater family would be.

And you are finished being argumentative, aren't you? Begging your pardon, I just realized I phrased that as a question. Let me try again. You are finished being argumentative.

Does that mean you're done brow-beating contributing members of this forum whose views differ from your own?

Best regards,

Jake

[Mike1]

Does that mean you're done brow-beating contributing members of this forum whose views differ from your own?

Jake, let me ask - do you have a dog in this hunt?

I chuckle at how some of you for stand back and allow 'well-reasoned' statements to be made that make a mockery of others, yet when someone points that out, they are brow-beating.

Call it what you like, gilmore's (entirely predictable) comments to McMurdo's original post were completely unnecessary. He jumped to a conclusion about McMurdo's research or lack thereof. (Rather interesting that he can make that leap, all the while chastising people for their presumed lack of research.)

If, by pointing that out, I am brow-beating, then my answer to you is "no, I am not finished". And if that response doesn't meet your expectations, just try to learn to live with it anyway, OK?

[Bryan]

I chuckle at how some of you for stand back and allow 'well-reasoned' statements to be made that make a mockery of others..

Call it what you like, gilmore's (entirely predictable) comments to McMurdo's original post were completely unnecessary. He jumped to a conclusion about McMurdo's research or lack thereof. (Rather interesting that he can make that leap, all the while chastising people for their presumed lack of research.)

Actually, Gilmore's original comment did no such thing. He never once questioned McMurdo's research nor did he mock him for joining his clan society. And if you don't believe me, read it again:

"There is much misinformation in many of the lists of septs and families that are claimed to be associated with the various clans. These bogus lists are perpetrated by tartan merchants who want to sell as much of their product to as many people as possible, and by clan associations who want to attract as many members as possible. Some common names appear on several of these lists.

The first step in tracing your family's history is going to the oldest people in your family and asking them what they remember about their parents, grandparents, and other ancestors. Then one goes to the public records to verify and flesh out these stories, ALWAYS working backward one generation at a time, without skipping any."

Now you tell me where he mocked him or questioned his research. Mike1, if you find it offensive to offer a bit of truth or a differing opinion than your own, then that's your problem. I was given the same info by some prominent members of this great group of guys (and girls) when trying to determine whether my family had any connection to a clan and no one got all up-in-arms then.

McMurdo, congrats on joining your clan's society!

[sirdaniel1975]

Actually most clan societies today are suggesting to their members to take part in the Scottish DNA Genealogy project. It pinpoints to the actual area of a country your DNA comes from. They wish to weed out all the non-clan descendants.

By the way... it is wee bit $$ for most.

[Mike1]

Now you tell me where he mocked him or questioned his research.

Rather than demanding I do anything, allow me to suggest you read Post 3. McMurdo's quote and gilmore's first statement.

Until anyone (are YOU up to the task, perhaps?) can prove to me that gilmore knows McMurdo did not look into his family history prior to making the comment he made, then I will stand by what I have said. Gilmore assumes his genealogical knowledge is superior to McMurdo's, based on what grounds?? I await presentation of the proof. Hmmmm, now what label will I receive, for holding someone's feet to the fire?

If gilmore wants to see a glass half-empty, that is fine with me. But to jump to this conclusion, for no other reason that trying to make someone out to be wrong? Sorry, that is not fine with me. And, if you care to follow along in the thread, you may notice I have identified gilmore's behavior to be entirely predictable. This is not the first time this problem has cropped up.

But I'll tell you what I am willing to do, Bryan. The next time this situation rears its ugly head and the complaints start flowing into my Inbox about someone's untoward behavior, I will forward those on to you. How does that sound to you? You are quite welcome to your own interpretations of the matter, but I am in a position to say you are not part of the majority on this one.

To make my position on clan societies clear, I belong to a rather useless society. (It has put me in touch with a family member I would not have met otherwise, so that membership is not a total write-off.) Additionally, my family relationships are what they are and a dues card doesn't alter or change those realtionships one iota.

However, there are clan societies that are working hard. As several have pointed out in this thread, many are now using DNA testing.

This time around, I've got people wanting to tar all clan societies with the same brush. If you will recall, a few weeks back, it was an group organizing a Scottish event that had all St. Andrew's societies getting the tar and feathers.

If someone wants to make absolute statements, then I don't think it is too much to ask for the person to supply absolute proof, to back up the statements. If anyone is not able to live up to that standard, it's certainly not me to blame.

[Cawdorian]

Some of the clan societies are worth belonging to, I belong to same one Mike1 mentions and I do not feel I get much for my money from the national society either. A group of four or five of us hold down the fort around the Atlanta area, we have a great time at the games and keep the clan name represented at various games in the area.

The Clan Campbell society has an exceptional quarterly magazine of about 64 pages and provides professional help in the genealogical department, membership is well worth the money.

Clan Donald has complicated bloodlines that are very difficult to unravel, the also provide a lot of help with genealogy, I am sure membership in their society is well worth the dues.

Clan societies are an excellent way to get in touch with your heritage, but not all are created equal.

[Bryan]

Rather than demanding I do anything, allow me to suggest you read Post 3. McMurdo's quote and gilmore's first statement.

Mike1, allow me to now pose a question to you. Do you actually read people's posts before you start answering them? I QUOTED POST 3 IN MY REPLY (post 42 if you want to actually read what I typed). It is now bolded so maybe you won't skip over it. Now, if you are referring to the "you would be misinformed" statement, how is that an attack? Did he say McMurdo is a moron for joining a bogus society? Hell no he didn't! There is no indication that McMurdo ever felt threatened by anything Gilmore said (at least not that he posted publicly). In fact, Gilmore and McMurdo were having a very civil and courteous exchange about genealogy. Here is my suggestion to you. Instead of attacking people for disagreeing with others (and most especially you, it seems), you should read ALL the posts to see what is transpiring and before passing on your almighty judgments.

As per your suggestion to forward all complaints to my inbox, that won't be necessary as people are more than free to form their own opinions and I don't look down my nose at them for disagreeing with me. I would agree that all complaints should to be taken seriously had Gilmore attacked McMurdo's race ,religion, etc, but attack him he certainly did not. As Monkey@ Arms pointed out earlier, it was "an informed opinion about the advice in the first post about what a good "first step" about learning about your greater family would be." Of course you then rounded on him for yet another opinion that differs from yours. Are you seeing a pattern here?

And for the record, I don't know Gilmore or Monkey@Arms from Adam. I just happen to agree with Monkey@Arms in regard to Gilmore's post.

Apologies to McMurdo that something special to him that he posted has gone down in flames, but Mike1's self-righteousness irks me.