What is Traditional Highland Dress?

[macwilkin]

In plainer lanugage, dress the way you want, and talk as much as you want about what is really appropriate Highland Dress, but stop making demeaning remarks about people who do not even pretend to wear the kilt in the Highland manner. Insulting remarks do not add to the discussion of Highland dress in a positive manner. Extend the same level of politeness and common courtesy to others as you would expect to be extended to those who seek some level of "accuracy" of Highland dress.

Remember, your opinion about the proper way to wear a kilt is only binding on the way the YOU wear a kilt. If you don't like the way another person wears or accessorizes a kilt, don't copy the example, and suffer in silence.

Of course, the very same statement could also be applied to those who frequently brand all traditionalist kilt-wearers as "kilt police", "kilt nazis", and so forth. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

T.

[MacMillans son]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

[Jock Scot]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

Yes Brooke I think you are getting nearer to "our" way of thinking and I for one, really appreciate you taking the trouble to try and understand where the Scots are coming from over this.Thank you.

Without, I hope, sounding patronising, the bit that you and your countrymen tend to forget is that the New World is a very young place compared with Scotland's place in the Old World. We have, say, at least another 600 to 1000 years of culture, history and traditions to carry on our backs compared to you chaps in the New World.Now in all fairness, that must take a fair bit of understanding for all concerned. In many ways you chaps have a clean slate, relatively speaking, and it is part of your young culture to question, reject if necessary, and adapt just about everything the Old World stands for and therein lies the crux of your understandable confusion.

[MacBean]

... I for one, really appreciate you taking the trouble to try and understand where the Scots are coming from over this.Thank you.
...
In many ways you chaps have a clean slate, relatively speaking, and it is part of your young culture to question, reject if necessary, and adapt just about everything the Old World stands for and therein lies the crux of your understandable confusion.

I suspect it is more complex than that as we do have history, and many here of Scots descent consider Scottish history as their own history. And why not? Some in the South may see the Jacobite Rebellions, the American Revolution, the Confederate secession (and perhaps the wild dress in Highland Games) as a continuum. Don't ask me how, I only barely understand it myself. That we have a great number of folk who have always questioned and distrusted tradition is probably true. Those who came here wer seeking opportunity for sure, but may also have been running away from their past constraints.

[macwilkin]

I suspect it is more complex than that as we do have history, and many here of Scots descent consider Scottish history as their own history. And why not? Some in the South may see the Jacobite Rebellions, the American Revolution, the Confederate secession (and perhaps the wild dress in Highland Games) as a continuum. Don't ask me how, I only barely understand it myself. That we have a great number of folk who have always questioned and distrusted tradition is probably true. Those who came here wer seeking opportunity for sure, but may also have been running away from their past constraints.

That is precisely why David recommended the excellent book Highland Heritage by Celeste Ray several pages back.

T.

[ali8780]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

Thank you for this-- I was pondering a similar vein of thought myself as I was reading through this thread.

[ThistleDown]

I think what is difficult for some on this continent to come to grips with is the level of Scottish pride that comes with the kilt. We outwith of Scotland, at least here in the U.S., don't have a "national attire" which generates as much emotion as the Kilt does for Scots. We compare it, emotionally, with Levis and can't understand what all of the fuss is about. We equate their emotional stance about how it should be worn to us telling them how they should wear their jeans.

Instead, as I am gleaning from the emotional replies from my new friends in Scotland, perhaps we here should equate it with how another country treats our flag. For many Scots, the kilt is not just a garment, it's a national symbol and treating it with anything but the utmost respect is experienced as a slight against their national pride, not just a fashion failure.

When I visualize the American flag being chopped up, turned into nic nacs, worn as casual clothing, especially in countries other than my own, I have a much different response than when I see someone wearing Levis in a way I would not choose to wear them (bleached, purposely torn or stained etc)

Through that lens I see a much different picture.

Am I gaining on it?

Brooke

Yes, Brooke, you are. It's not all about the kilt, though, it is about "Traditional Highland (Civilian) Dress".

I brought into the discussion your own baseball cap (which, I am told, has evolved into a "ballcap" and now into just simply "the cap"). I asked if it is a traditional item of American attire, if wearing it backwards is a "fashion" and if wearing it backwards and indoors is a "personal style".

You have read what happened next.

There is no divergence of opinion comparable in Scotland on the subject of flat caps -- which, by the way, have evolved into "caps" for us. They are loved by most for their function, but they are not considered by any to be an item of traditional Highland civilian dress.

Traditional Civilian Highland Dress does not include flat caps or pith helmets (sorry, Jamie) or claymores or targes or deer-hide shoes or so-called Jacobite shirts or regimental ties or tiers of badges and medals.

What the Scots on this forum -- and those who understand our culture so very well despite not living in it -- strongly object to is being told that some fashion (read "flat caps" or anything else from the above list here, if you wish) is traditional Highland attire because it is popular and worn with the kilt in a region of America.

Sorry, but we own the tradition. We love that you want to borrow it and even adopt it as your own, but the tradition is that of the Highlands of Scotland and not subject to the whims of somebody from somewhere else. It has evolved over time and it will continue to do so. It may even adopt some fashions or features developed elsewhere in the world as it evolves (rubber soles for our brogues comes to mind .

So, Brooke, you are on the way for sure for sure. Using your analogy, let's say a number of folk in Scotland take the American flag, turn it upside down, stitch a big white saltire over the stars and fly it from a flag pole. It becomes the Scottish fashion to do that -- and to call it "Old Glory".

Is it a traditional American flag? Is it an American flag at all?

With passion (and great respect),

Rex

[davidlpope]

Sorry, but we own the tradition. We love that you want to borrow it and even adopt it as your own, but the tradition is that of the Highlands of Scotland and not subject to the whims of somebody from somewhere else. It has evolved over time and it will continue to do so. It may even adopt some fashions or features developed elsewhere in the world as it evolves (rubber soles for our brogues comes to mind .

Rex,

Despite being an outlander, I agree with your statement. The necessary corollary, though, is that Americans are dependent on Highlanders for "informing our sensibilities" concerning Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD). I'm appreciative of the guidance provided here on XMarks, and covet those rare trips to Scotland, but perhaps some brainstorming for additional ways that the word can be got out is in order...

I did have a question raised when I read this section:

Traditional Civilian Highland Dress does not include flat caps or pith helmets (sorry, Jamie) or claymores or targes or deer-hide shoes or so-called Jacobite shirts or regimental ties or tiers of badges and medals.

I recall many photos of individuals wearing THCD, in the Highlands, which featured regimental neckties. I understand that one should only wear neckties one "rates"(regiments/ branches of service one has served in), but shouldn't they be considered an acceptable aspect of THCD even if they are not a required aspect of THCD? Please help me to understand the distinction here.

Cordially,

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Rex,

Despite being an outlander, I agree with your statement. The necessary corollary, though, is that Americans are dependent on Highlanders for "informing our sensibilities" concerning Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD). I'm appreciative of the guidance provided here on XMarks, and covet those rare trips to Scotland, but perhaps some brainstorming for additional ways that the word can be got out is in order...

I did have a question raised when I read this section:



I recall many photos of individuals wearing THCD, in the Highlands, which featured regimental neckties. I understand that one should only wear neckties one "rates"(regiments/ branches of service one has served in), but shouldn't they be considered an acceptable aspect of THCD even if they are not a required aspect of THCD? Please help me to understand the distinction here.

Cordially,

David

I think what Rex was referring to was the (mostly US) custom of wearing regimental ties by those individuals who have no entitlement to the tie; ie: they never served in the regiment.

In the photos you've posted all of the gentlemen have an indisputable entitlement to wear their regimental tie. I doubt that Rex, Jock, or any of the rest of us would have a problem with anyone wearing a striped tie with their kilt-- but wearing a regimental tie... well, that's a stripe of another colour.

[ThistleDown]

Rex,

Despite being an outlander, I agree with your statement. The necessary corollary, though, is that Americans are dependent on Highlanders for "informing our sensibilities" concerning Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD). I'm appreciative of the guidance provided here on XMarks, and covet those rare trips to Scotland, but perhaps some brainstorming for additional ways that the word can be got out is in order...

I did have a question raised when I read this section:



I recall many photos of individuals wearing THCD, in the Highlands, which featured regimental neckties. I understand that one should only wear neckties one "rates"(regiments/ branches of service one has served in), but shouldn't they be considered an acceptable aspect of THCD even if they are not a required aspect of THCD? Please help me to understand the distinction here.

Cordially,

David

Thank you, David. You will have experienced this "rising up" on the forum before now. Those of us who do the rising thing are always just a tad embarassed after the fact, even though we know that many of you understand our frustration and the need to vent. Brainstorming will help all of us, I am sure.

You asked me to explain my comment on regimental ties. I did try to include other things like badges and medals and the like in my little list but I suppose I was not very clear, was I? You struck the nail quite squarely, however. There are some exquisitely beautiful regimental and school ties out there and some of us are even entitled to wear one or two of them (our own Jock you have shown, Duart and, of course, HRH). They are just ties, after all. On board here, however, there are many who think that it is an honour to the regiment (or school) if they wear that regiment's or school's tie. In Highland tradition that is presumtuous and even insulting. It is not far distant from wearing medals to which you are not entitled.